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Pumping gas...
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Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15235
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 2:03 pm    Post subject: Pumping gas...  Reply with quote    

As you may know, I have been thinking about making gas for a while. One of the obvious problems is storing it and the obvious solution is to pump it into tanks.
This chap on Youtube is doing it with an ordinary garage compressor, which several people I've spoken to seem to think is a very dangerous prospect, what with electric motors, sparks and flammable gas.
I think the flammable gas is well enough sealed away from anything that would normally spark, but I thought I would seek a second opinion here...

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35284
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

a very dangeroos activity even with the right kit and safety trained staff

i recon a standard compressor made for air would be a big bang waiting to happen in a very impatient mood.

JUST DONT is my advice

im not sure how to get round this ,maybe a low pressure gasometer type store would be safer

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35284
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

ps i have worked with 2000psi hydrogen as well as oxy acetyline kit and compressed air at 2000 psi.

dangeroos stuff compressed gas

Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15235
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I don't think I was planning to compress it that much.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35284
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

any amount of compression ups the odds of a leak or internal bang if there is any contamination with air .

iirc the gas holders of old will fill with the pressure of production ie no pumps or compressors.

the modern stuff as in piper alpha et al uses high pressure compression to liquify the gas and is very dangeroos

if pumping is required maybe a bellows type thing (earthed against sparks and leak proof)would be a fairly safe way.a bit like a gas meter but pushing rather than pushed if you see what im getting at .

vegplot



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21298
Location: Ynys Môn
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The gas / oxygen mix has to be in the correct proportion to get a explosion or rapid burning even when pressurised so you'll need to scrub all oxygen from the mix before trying to compress it.

You'll also need to consider moisture. The drain valve at the bottom of the compressor isn't the way to do it either. Again scrub any moisture prior to compression. See diving tank compressor for method of scrubbing water from the gas.

Don't do it is very good advice but if it goes wrong we'll expect to see some pics.

Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15235
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

vegplot wrote:
The gas / oxygen mix has to be in the correct proportion to get a explosion or rapid burning even when pressurised so you'll need to scrub all oxygen from the mix before trying to compress it.

If it is gas made by gasification, then I'd expect the oxygen to have been fairly effectively scrubbed by the combustion, and if the production is by anaerobic digestion, then if there is oxygen, then there will be no production.
Of course, there may be leaks subsequent...

Quote:
You'll also need to consider moisture. The drain valve at the bottom of the compressor isn't the way to do it either.

I can see that it is not desirable, but why would it be a big problem?

vegplot



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21298
Location: Ynys Môn
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

1. Leaks are your enemy
2. Corrosion. See 1.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35284
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

BANGS ARE ALSO YOUR ENEMY

see leaks as above

i have been reading about early and modern gas production and scrubbing the product between the retort and any subsequent pumping,storage ,distribution or use seems a very vital part of the process whatever the feed stock

see corrosion as above

see toxins and gumming up the works here

this game seems a bit iffy even for a hillbilly style wood gas engine

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35284
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 15 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

ps my second hound seems to manage to pump his gas by peristalsis and production pressure

Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15235
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 15 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

vegplot wrote:
1. Leaks are your enemy
2. Corrosion. See 1.

That was what I thought, but I don't think corrosion will be quick enough to trouble the prototype, and as you've brought it up, it has put me in mind of a plastic beer barrel...

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10714

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 15 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Didn't the old gas holders use water at the bottom as a seal?

I would advise against doing this too Hairyloon. I once saw the results of a house that had an explosion caused by natural gas. It was caused by a poorly sealed joint and when the gas/oxygen level reached the critical point it went bang. Luckily the only person injured suffered only superficial burns, but it didn't do the house a lot of good and wrecked the kitchen.

Falstaff



Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 15 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Difficult to envisage your system, but I expect your input to the compressor would be down some sort of pipe sealed to the unit so as to prevent the ingress of air ?

Oxygen is the killer here - and a purging mechanism must be employed, whether that be water or some inert gas, or a combination of the two. That purging mechanism must be adequate !

I don't see any reason to believe that a piston going up and down in a cylinder would either spark or provide enough compression to lead to a danger of "dieselling" - however without oxygen, neither of these apparent dangers can cause an ignition !

A slightly more complex arrangement could possibly be engineered using perhaps TWO of those beer barrels. One as the terminal storage vessel and the other as a receiver/compressor. This could be filled with water and gas allowed to enter, displacing the water through a valve arrangement at the bottom. Once the barrel is fille3d with gas, the water could be forced back in, compressing the gas and eventually driving it along a line connected to the top of the barrel into the storage vessel usnig the principles of Hydraulics.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pasc.html

The provision of the compressing force could be by using a compressor running air, or possible by simply using mains water pressure !

Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15235
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 15 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Mistress Rose wrote:
Didn't the old gas holders use water at the bottom as a seal?

Not just the old ones, I think they still do that, but there is a limit to how much pressure you can contain that way.

Quote:
I would advise against doing this too Hairyloon. I once saw the results of a house that had an explosion caused by natural gas. It was caused by a poorly sealed joint and when the gas/oxygen level reached the critical point it went bang.

That would have been because of a leak rather than gas under pressure, it isn't really relevant to this discussion, unless you are advising me simply not to mess with gas...

Falstaff



Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 15 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Just went and watched your link HL ! Then went for a bit of a tour

I particularly liked this one :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p34rZeRPoM

It seems so simple, just a charcoal kiln basically and using the waste to inflate a receiver (Love the receiver !) Then pumping up a bottle (PERHAPS ?)

The gas coming out of that tube of his seems like good stuff - He says "Hydrogen" - Can it really be done as simply as that ?

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