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Do you view shooting as sport?
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jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 26645
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 04 11:38 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Deerstalker wrote:
Sorry folks, that was me - logged out through time


was wondering

jema

sean
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41975
Location: North Devon
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 04 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I thought it probably was. I don't know the answer, either just behind the shoulder, or in the neck seem likely.
Cheers, Sean

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 04 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

DS, I think most of us appreciate that animals can get away wounded. That ain't rocket science. But what you're describing isn't far from what other people have said that they consider reasonable, i.e. that a shooter attempts to minimise suffering, choosing only to use his or her gun when the chance of killing the animal is as good as it will get, and only using the weapon on appropriate prey.

That it can be a hard thing to judge isn't in question.

deerstalker



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 589

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 04 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Well the maths is easy enough.

Sean, you're wrong and right. You are wrong in as much as there is only one place to ensure an instant kill, and that is through the brain. In reality, one never (or rarely) takes that option.

Too many stalkers and deer have twitched at the last moment, which has resulted in deer escaping with their lower jaws blow off to die horribly days later.

You are also wrong with the neck shot. Unless you can cut the spinal cord with your first shot (upper, middle or lower neck?), your quarry will escape to die later. Even if you do, your quarry will be alive and concious and you will have to finish it off.

You are right, in as much as the correct aiming point is the heart / lung shot. But one must remember, a heart shot deer can run up to 700m before falling.

Instant kill??

Or perhaps Cab you are a supporter of the Texas heart shot?

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 04 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Quote:
You are right, in as much as the correct aiming point is the heart / lung shot. But one must remember, a heart shot deer can run up to 700m before falling.


That's why if you think you've missed you must always look for signs of a wounded animal and make sure it was a clean miss! Do you use a tracking dog out of interest?

But, my point would be that if you followed the logic of some bird shoots they would wish to shoot the animal at the far extent of the rifles range. This I am not happy with as there is a far greate chance of wounding.

Jonnyboy



Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23924
Location: under some rain.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 04 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Deerstalker.

I totally agree with your position and consider the risks acceptable. However, Where I disagree is when the shots are made deliberately challenging to imporove the 'sport'

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 04 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Deerstalker wrote:


Or perhaps Cab you are a supporter of the Texas heart shot?


Depends which Texan you're planning to shoot through the heart

I really don't see where your view differs so greatly from mine. You want to see an animal die as quickly and painlessly as possible, and so do I. You want to see something as near to one shot killing an animal as near as damn it straight away, and so do I. You believe that it's important to try not to see an animal get away wounded to die slowly and painfully, and so do I.

deerstalker



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 589

PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 04 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Deerstalker wrote:
I'm trying to be realistic about what shooting is like for those who, perhaps don't take part.


The comments were made for those people who have little or no experience of firearms and shooting for the pot.

Most people's idea of death from shooting comes from the TV - this is totally wrong and unrealistic!

The joke at the end was aimed at you, but you didn't get it

It has nothing to do with US presidents (more's the pity - we'll have the FEDS knocking at our doors for posting this).

Texas heart shots are when a shooter fires at a running deer, up the backside in order to kill it.

This is frowned upon everywhere except the USA

Gervase



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 8655

PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 04 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The Texas heart shot sems to be the preferred method of the police, judging by a fallow buck I saw being dressed by my local butcher. The buck had got its head caught in a wire fence, and the local firearms unit had been summoned to despatch it - which they did with a 7.62 bullet fired from the rear.
The round travelled up through the body, with the resulting shockwave virtually destroying all the tissue along the way. The resulting carcasse was unusable except for dog food, and was a grim lesson in the awful power of full-bore jacketted amunition.
On the wider question of 'sport' I've beaten on a good number of big shoots, and have often watched complete w***ers take wild 60-yard shots at high birds only to prick them, leaving the bird to develop gangrene. It's an emotive subject - a good shot will still kill a high bird cleanly, but a bad shot will make a mess of even a low bird - and for beaters, low birds are bad news!
Trouble is, very few shots will ever pattern their gun properly to see the spread of shot and the effect of different chokings. At 30 yards with a fairly open choke, they'd be surprised at how low the pellet density becomes. If you've got a gun, put a large sheet of paper over some hardboard and draw the outline of a pigeon or pheasant on the paper. Then walk back 30 yards and take a shot - and realise why the birds so often seem to fly off wounded. The problem gets worse the larger the shot - so a goose cartridge with No 4 shot will have fewer pellets close enough together to guarantee a hit on a vital part of the bird than a load of No 6.
The answer is to know your gun and its ammunition, realise their capabilities, and practise on clays until you know you can hit cleanly. None of which should be a chore - clay shooting is fun, after all, even if you can't eat the results!

Guest






PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 04 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Anonymous wrote:
Sport! Absolutely not. A running Pheasant is an easier shot than a flying one. Why give your dinner a sporting chance to get away Seems daft to me.


Hardly fair law, that is it?, shooting a running pheasant? its people like you that give genuine shooters a bad name, if you cant shoot dont! there are plenty of pheasants and all kinds of game to be bought at the local game dealers.

Aled
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 04 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Personally like most shooters my aim )if you pardon the pun) is to pull off a humane shot. However i do enjoy the lead up to the clean shot. So i wont pretend i genuinely enjoy shooting. In my opinion it is a sport.
Cheers
Aled

leebu



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 418
Location: east yorkshire
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 04 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

As someone fairly new to shooting (and I only use an air rifle) I enjoy being out in the country side and stalking rabbits, pidgeons etc but if I bag a rabbit it is both rare and a treat but not really my reason for being there. I can, and generally do, live without meat. For me the kill is the worst bit-I was very interested to read Deerstalkers description of the heart pounding moment... not just novices then!
However I don't consider what I do a sport. I practice as often as I can and would never shoot at prey which is out of my range (about twenty five to thirty yards currently and then the wind has to be right), always go for head shots and only in the clear. As you can imagine it's quite hard to get that close to a wild animal and if if in doubt I won't shoot. The challenge of being a good shot comes in the target practice for me. Put live quarry in front of my gun and I no longer feel like it's a game just a job that has to be done well. I hope that never changes. Truth is, if I ever started enjoying any part of actually shooting at live animals I'd stop.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 44281
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 04 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Welcome on board leebu

leebu



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 418
Location: east yorkshire
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 04 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Glad to be here. Enjoying the site- some very interesting stuff, particularly on the homebrewing front...

deerstalker



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 589

PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 04 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

leebu wrote:
For me the kill is the worst bit-I was very interested to read Deerstalkers description of the heart pounding moment... not just novices then!
Truth is, if I ever started enjoying any part of actually shooting at live animals I'd stop.


Sorry to disappoint you leebu, but that was my point. You (I) do enjoy that moment. Maybe, as I've said, it's satisfying the hunter instinct - I don't know.

What I do know, is, you can't rationalise it by saying "I'm a civilised person, I don't enjoy killing things - it's a means to an end.

If I could do that, I'd be buying rabbit from the butcher or game dealer and shooting at targets to prove my skill.

I enjoy being in lonely beautiful places, I enjoy the fieldcraft, I enjoy the stalk, I enjoy the moment of the "kill", I'm disappointed if I miss, I admire and mourn my dead quarry. I then go home and revere and enjoy my prize (and talk about my exploits)

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