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dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 05 11:41 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Res wrote:
With your knowledge of bio-diesel then, would you be willing to write up a brief outline of how to make it for those of us that are interested before we shell out £180 for the course?

Res, I'm very willing to share what knowledge I have - but it doesn't yet extend to include personal experience of homebrewing biodiesel.
The original bestselling (american) book on the subject is called "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank". But a great start would be to just Google "Veggie Van".

Bugs



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 10744

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 05 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

£180 doesn't sound such a bad deal for a course, if it is really practical rather than things you can just read up. Sorry if I'm being dippy, but do you actually get to produce something on the course and see it work (so you know what you're aiming for?).

Can you use biodiesel to run equipment...er, like a generator etc, anything that has an engine but doesn't transport things/people...I assume it would still be liable to tax but would this be the same as tax for the road (probably another stupid question); even if it is still taxable with smaller equipment that you might be fixing at home it could be less of a risk than in your snazzy new Merc...

Guest






PostPosted: Wed May 11, 05 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
The original bestselling (american) book on the subject is called "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank". But a great start would be to just Google "Veggie Van".


Many thanks Dougal.

While we have your attention, do you have an info re. my third point on my original "hijacking" post, considering it was all relative to automotive fuel, I raised the issue of running the (petrol) car on Mehane. My findings 'suggest' it works the 'same' as LPG.

Bugs,
I believe you do get to make some, and I guess you would have to pay duty and tax on it if you were to take it home.

The fuel you use 'at home' would still be liable for normal duty and tax as if you were filling at the high street pumps, unless you qualify for aggrecultural usage i.e. farm equipment, but you will need to contact the Customs & Excise to clarify.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 05 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Anonymous wrote:
...I raised the issue of running the (petrol) car on Mehane. My findings 'suggest' it works the 'same' as LPG.

Mains "natural" gas is essentially Methane.
LPG is Butane/Propane, ie like "Calor" gas.
Both *can* be used for automotive propulsion, but...
As I'm sure you know from cookers and boilers, you need different burner jets for mains and bottled gas - and cars need to be set up differently. IIRC, LPG is within the tolerance of most petrol engines, whereas Methane requires somewhat different ignition timing. Result being that a Methane car is methane-only, whereas an LPG car can switch over "on the fly" to petrol.
You *can* collect methane from compost - Judyofthewoods directed us to the french guru "Jean Pain".
BUT, you don't get many miles per gallon of *gas*. To get any range you have to compress it hard - and you are into compressors, pressurised pipes and cylinders...
I have mental images of piccys of a WW2 bus with a same size "gasbag" on its roof... But a brief Google found me this:
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~sandy/wolseley/oddities/gas.html

WARNING: Methane is explosive. In mining its called "firedamp". Play VERY cautiously.

However, if you move to California, Honda have got just the vehicle for you! :
http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news008/
The UK tax complications don't even bear thinking about!


If you want to play/experiment in this general area, a relatively *SAFE* area would be the use of Waste Veg Oil for heating, eg an Aga/Rayburn range or a central heating boiler.

PeterR



Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Milton Keynes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 05 11:32 am    Post subject: LILI biodiesel course and new paperback book Reply with quote    

Hi,

I've been on the LILI biodiesel course and I think it's great... but let me also say straight away that I work part time at LILI. The course is £120 unwaged, £150 waged, £180 high waged (food and accommodation included).

The course was developed at LILI, is taught by the UK's leading small scale biodiesel trainers Dan and Jon of www.Goldenfuels.com (an Oxford based biodiesel cooperative), and is the same course that is run at CAT (but it costs more there). Feedback from course participants is always extremely positive: they particularly like the hands on work (each student makes a small batch of biodiesel during the course), the no nonsense teaching style, and the opportunity to pick up so much relevant knowledge from the tutors.

We at LILI have also just published a paperback book: 'How to make biodiesel' £9.95 including UK postage - a much cheaper alternative the the USA book 'Fryer to the Fuel Tank'.

We have also (last weekend) just run our first course on converting your diesel engine to run on straight vegetable oil. As some earlier contributors said, some engines are OK on veg oil (old merc diesels), some really benefit from conversion (d, td), and some aren't really suitable (tdi, hdi etc - biodiesel is probably your best option there).

We also have a free information sheet on biodiesel, by the way. Our next biodiesel course is July 22-24, and there are places available (but be quick, it always gets fully booked). You can book your place on the course online, by post (LILI, Redfield, Winslow, Bucks MK18 3LZ cheques to 'LILI') or over the phone (01296 714184)

cheers,
PeterR

Andrea



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 05 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: LILI biodiesel course and new paperback book Reply with quote    

PeterR wrote:
Our next biodiesel course is July 22-24, and there are places available (but be quick, it always gets fully booked).


Thanks for the reminder Peter! I've just booked b/friend onto it. Can't afford for both of us to do it unfortunately, & he's the more technically minded.

Andrea

dieselveg



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 05 7:18 pm    Post subject: We have just come accross this forum and had to address this Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
Res wrote:
dougal wrote:
You might almost think dieselveg were pushing a product!

Does sound like you are to?
Or is it the knowledge your selling?

For the avoidance of all doubt - I am not selling anything.
I am not, and have never been, involved in the fuel business.
The nearest I come is to having worked, twenty years ago, for a company selling a non-toxic anti-fouling product to the offshore industry. Oh and I have a brother who works abroad as a trader in bunker oil for shipping.
Currently, circumstances mean I don't even drive a diesel.
But I do have a science degree, and longstanding interest in both cars and renewable energy, and studied this area a couple of years ago, purely out of personal interest.

This thread was on biodiesel courses until hijacked by a story about pouring cooking oil into a Merc in a german supermarket car park.
I have sought to explain WHY that is NOT such a good idea for most folk in the UK. And WHY biodiesel is a better solution for anyone driving a post-1996 vehicle and paying their taxes.
"Dieselveg" are selling their approach. And I think it would be financial and ecological nonsense for someone to travel from Harlow to Wolverhampton for fuel - I hope I have explained WHY, rather than simply stating an opinion and trying to "play the man rather than the ball".

As an entirely seperate aspect, I lose respect for any sales literature (such as dieselveg's site) that states or implies that ISO 9001 applies to product quality - that plainly demonstrates a lack of understanding of what one is talking about (or possibly a desire to mislead). ISO 9001 applies to the company not the product. It is about how the company's Quality Control management and NOT how good the product is!




We have just come across this forums narrative an was astounded at what was being said. We do not know if we have upset dougal in the past but it seems that way and for a man with a Science degree he sure shows his ignorance.

We have to laugh at the way he implies we are this behemoth money making machine “pushing a product”, where in fact the Dieselveg project is borne out of love for the planet and fellow inhabitants, let us tell you that we have been running for three and a half years with virtually no personal returns apart from great satisfaction that we are doing something worthwhile, it is our lives work, so it does disappoint us when someone apparently so well versed is so negative.

Dieselveg would just like to set the record straight on a few points in no particular order:

We do agree that traveling large distances to obtain our fuel would be financially and ecologically obtrusive, it’s the same reason we do not deliver, what is required is that this fuel be available countrywide. Our customers find all sorts of ways to obtain their oil, if you are prepared to work a little at it it is not too difficult.

We maintain that if Rudolf Diesel had lived the Diesel engine would have evolved to run more than just Dinodiesel, his vision was for an engine and fuel for the masses.

Dougal seems only interested in the economics not in the enormous green issue.

We are promoting what we consider to be the better alternative to bio-diesel in respect of purity, simplicity and its green properties. We choose to modify the engine and not the fuel.

There ARE specific standards for rapeseed oil as a fuel (RK Weihenstephan Qualitystandard)

Although bio-diesel can be made using ethanol, the vast majority of Biodiesel production, mainly relies on the FOSSIL FUEL methanol, caustic soda and acid in the transesterification process, methanol has some interesting hazards on its own, apart from it being a fossil fuel, namely when breathed in, or taken in through the skin the body has no natural immunities to its toxins so it just builds up in the body, this can lead to all sorts of nasty ailments, the first of which is that it attacks the optic nerve so blindness is possible, also, when methanol and caustic soda is mixed it makes sodium methoxide which is a particularly nasty substance that if spilled, it attracts mercury like a sponge, it does not take many parts per million to pollute our water supplies, this is happening all over the country in "backyard" pocessing and its operators scarcely know the dangers.

Bio-diesel production is a loss system whereby there is about 15-20% waste “glycerine”, which in fact is next to useless, again contrary to popular belief, there are actually glycerine waste mountains already building up. Using Vegetable oil there is no such waste, furthermore burning the glycerine part as with vegetable oil regains the full energy values and it is proven to have more energy value. A vehicle burning Pure rapeseed oil will have more available power than when it burns B100 bio-diesel.

Bio-diesel is NOT vindicated by most vehicle manufacturers as indicated, on the contrary there is only VW - Audi prepared to say that B100 is ok in their vehicles ALL other manufacturers state 5 or 10%. We have first hand experience that bio-diesel is not as safe as it is cracked up to be. This is the reason that so called bio-diesel as sold in the UK is actually B5 (5%bio-diesel and 95%DIESEL!!!!!!!) what a con, we maintain that if 5% pure rapeseed oil were mixed with diesel (V5) it would have BETTER overall properties than B5 Bio-diesel.

Bio-diesel also tends to wax at relatively high temperatures and indeed sales of heat exchangers and heaters by us to bio-diesel users confirms this

Having said all this about bio-diesel it is still by a large margin better than dinodiesel.

Diesel engine manufacturers could easily slightly modify their engines to run vegetable oils, they just have no vested interest to do so, it is therefore left to specialists like us.

Many of the newer engines, contrary to dougals statement actally run very well on vegetable oil, common rail and unit injector (pumpe deuse) engines because of the vastly elevated pressures not so much atomise the fuel when it enters the engine but fires it in as a gas, the thicker the fuel in these cases, apparently the better (as explained to us by one of the UK's biggest fuel injection specialist)

There have been many millions of miles already covered on vegetable oil worldwide with very few problems. The Germans lead the way and we are proud to be associated with their methods.

As an aside…………….

Dougal wrote

i]"As an entirely seperate aspect, I lose respect for any sales literature (such as dieselveg's site) that states or implies that ISO 9001 applies to product quality - that plainly demonstrates a lack of understanding of what one is talking about (or possibly a desire to mislead). ISO 9001 applies to the company not the product. It is about how the company's Quality Control management and NOT how good the product is!"[/i]

We can only presume he is harping on about our congratulating our supplier ATG in attaining the ISO9001 quality standard. On ATG's certificate it states that they have "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts." We have not stated that this indicates how good the product is even though it certainly contributes to the prospective buyers confidence!! And if its true we are entitled to advertise the fact especially on our own hard earned website!!!!

We have not stated anything that is not true, we have not even bent the truth, we do not state or imply that iso9001 applies to product quality so Dougal we do not require the respect of such an apparent bigot.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 05 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: We have just come accross this forum and had to address Reply with quote    

dieselveg wrote:
Diesel engine manufacturers could easily slightly modify their engines to run vegetable oils, they just have no vested interest to do so, it is therefore left to specialists like us.


Call me stupid (not so fast ) but why not? If they made such a 'green' engine this would be worth millions in publicity at the very least.

dieselveg



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 05 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: We have just come accross this forum and had to address Reply with quote    

Treacodactyl wrote:
dieselveg wrote:
Diesel engine manufacturers could easily slightly modify their engines to run vegetable oils, they just have no vested interest to do so, it is therefore left to specialists like us.


Call me stupid (not so fast ) but why not? If they made such a 'green' engine this would be worth millions in publicity at the very least.


Simple answer - large oil companies.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 05 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Hi Dieselveg
Wow - it seems **you** have a few misunderstandings, not least where I'm coming from.

But firstly, welcome to the forum! I hope that you'll find a variety of interesting subjects here.

I'm not used to being called a "bigot" (twice in one post) or"showing my ignorance" (But I'm always delighted to be corrected on facts.)
And just because I've come to a different conclusion to you, doesn't make me automatically wrong, or bad.
And anyway, isn't bigotry associated with irrational belief?

But first a couple of minor points: ISO 9001. Your website claims "The ONLY kit manufacturers to have attained the ISO 9001 Quality Standard for their vegetable oil kits." I repeat my point that ISO 9001 is not a product quality standard. Its really about the quality of the Quality Control management system.
Take a look here: http://www.iso-9000.co.uk/d-commerce/index.html
Having been involved with such accreditation, this is a personal peeve. And I repeat the point that it actually guarantees nothing beyond the existence of approved paperwork systems, intended to lead to product consistancy - but it does not indicate anything about the actual quality, just awareness of its consistancy, or lack thereof.
The failure to understand that distinction is indeed a 'red rag' to me.
It fairly screams out "irrelevant marketing bullet point". And puts me on guard for others.

When you state "the vast majority of Biodiesel production, mainly relies on the FOSSIL FUEL methanol", (your capital letters) I have to conclude that you've not heard it called "wood alcohol" and are unaware that methanol can be produced as easily as ethanol by fermentation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioalcohol

To say "Dougal seems only interested in the economics not in the enormous green issue" is a major misapprehension.
I believe I did manage to point out to someone that thought there was a massive economic incentive to run veg oil
(1) that using veg oil as road fuel, taxes have to be paid in the UK (unlike some other countries)
(2) it would not make financial (never mind economic) sense for Res to drive from Harlow to the Midlands for his fuel.
(3) Were it not for the tax subsidy for bio-road-fuels, you would be selling *waste* veg oil for the same price as fossil diesel - at a time when fossil energy prices are very high.

It is the "enormous green issue" that makes me an enthusiastic proponent of biodiesel.
I don't think there's a vast ecological difference between biodiesel and SVO. And economics will influence the choice between the two.

I recognise that you must see Biodiesel as your market competition.
I respect your right to "push" your products.
But I do think that is *exactly* what you are doing with website front page statements like "Diesel engines that are converted cost half to run with no loss of performance and more pleasant emissions". No dispute more pleasant emissions than fossil diesel. But better emissions than Biodiesel?
And "cost half to run" I have to take issue with. Economics, sorry.
ULS (fossil) diesel sells here, today at 86p/litre. Assuming (for the moment) the same mpg, that claim implies a fuel cost of 43p/litre. You are selling waste oil at 66p. Cheaper to DIY? It would be if one evaded the tax. It would be if one skimped on filtering, neutralising and de-gumming waste oil. I'm sure you aren't saying that your margin in that 66p is 23p (a 50% markup) - so how can DIY possibly be THAT much cheaper than your own professional "kitted up" (semi-industrial?) large quantity processing?
I've assumed the same servicing costs as fossil diesel - but I understand that *more* frequent oil changes are needed when running SVO.
Now mpg. "No loss of performance" - hmm. My understanding is that Biodiesel (100% RME) has about a 6 to 10% lower energy density than fossil diesel (which accounts for the slightly lower mpg generally reported, AND a similar reduction in power output). And that SVO is slightly lower than RME (see below). So I'd expect similar or lower performance than RME Biodiesel.
I believe I am being objective in pointing out the slight drop in performance with Biodiesel. But you claim "no loss of performance" with Straight Veg Oil. I think that IS "bending the truth".
And if the mpg IS lower, then the cost per litre HAS to be EVEN LOWER to justify your claim of "cost half to run".

And allowing your enthusiasm to run away with you, does you no credit.

Its exactly the "over-egging" that I was referring to when Res quoted your gushing prose on the website and I responded that you were "pushing a product".
I fail to see why you should infer from that that I should be casting you as "this behemoth money making machine" - although I can understand why that would be amusing!
No - I was simply pointing out that Res was quoting sales material and not an independent, authoritative source.

And I'm afraid that the "over-egging" continues.
The statement "burning the glycerine part as with vegetable oil regains the full energy values and it is proven to have more energy value. A vehicle burning Pure rapeseed oil will have more available power than when it burns B100 bio-diesel" simply doesn't seem to be borne out by scientific fact.
If you check http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#fuelfats you will find a couple of tables listing the energy density of various fuel oils (in kJ/kg), where you'll see
Fossil Diesel "No2 DF" 45343
Rapeseed Oil 39709
Methy Rapeseed Oil Ester (ie RME) 40449
below the table are the reference sources for the figures.
Rapeseed Oil is NOT a more powerful fuel than RME, and both are somewhat less powerful than fossil diesel.
The same table shows that Rapeseed Oil goes cloudy at -3.9ºC, RME Biodiesel at -2, whereas Fossil Diesel goes to -15. I don't think that justifies the statement that "Bio-diesel also tends to wax at relatively high temperatures and indeed sales of heat exchangers and heaters by us to bio-diesel users confirms this". IMHO -2 is not "relatively high", either against SVO at -4 or the British climate.

Blends. I'd like to see ALL ultra low sulphur diesel in the UK being a Bio blend - as in much of Europe. I think that could be a great ecological contribution, without requiring any consumer action whatsoever. And I'd want to see the Bio proportion in the blend increased, year on year, as Bio production expanded.
But I haven't seen any misrepresentation or "passing off" blends as being 100% Bio.

And disproportionately emphasising the dangers of methanol also smacks of "over-egging". As does the fanciful assertion that biodiesel homebrewers "all over the country" are polluting watercourses, and that therefore presumably any biodiesel production is an ecological disaster.
When you mention Caustic Soda in Biodiesel processing, you fail to mention that this is partly as a catalyst (promoting, but not consumed in the reaction) and partly to neutralise the acid in the oil - and that this neutralisation is equally necessary for reliable use of SVO, and particularly if it is Waste Veg Oil.
While the assertions of what Diesel himself might have done are just that, personal assertions.
As far as I know, Diesel publicly exhibited engines at the Paris Exhibition of 1900 (when Eiffel built the tower) and conspiracy theories around his death are just that - conspiracy theories - the net is full of them.
My understanding is that he ended up using *imported* peanut oil because it was the lowest acid, lowest gum, and lowest viscosity oil he could lay his hands on.
There really wasn't much of an "oil industry" in 1900, and even fourteen years later, in WW1 the British tried to use Cavalry on Horseback...
The requirements for a fuel for agricultural machinery (threshing, etc) which Diesel was interested in, or even marine use, are very different to the requirements for a 21st century vehicle engine. Frequent starting and stopping, acceleration, responsiveness - these are no part of the brief for a threshing machine engine.

I really can't imagine why you might think car manufacturers wouldn't produce a better "greener" engine if it was economic, attractive and reliable.
Where's the profit to the "large oil companies" in a Toyota Prius, or even a better than averagely economical machine like the Audi A2?
I'll say just this: if you believe the car manufacturers and oil companies are in a conspiracy to suppress the use of SVO (or WVO), then you'd probably also believe that these were "better" fuels than biodiesel both on ecological and engineering grounds.
And my personal judgement, which I think is unbiased and objective, there is no such conspiracy and biodiesel is the better fuel.
My personal opinion is that the reason it is Biodiesel, rather than SVO, that is blended into fossil diesel is that it makes a better (engineering-wise) fuel. Not a conspiracy.

Let there be no doubt, I think that Straight Veg Oil is a much more ecologically attractive fuel than fossil diesel.
But I think that Biodiesel is at least as ecologically good, and, IMHO importantly, a more practical proposition for more people in this country. Certainly for those with modern engines and driving moderate mileages.

I'd like others to be able to make their minds up on this, equally free of commercial pressures. On the basis of accurate facts.

I'm afraid your mixture of misguided insult, assertion, conspiracy theory and mistaken facts hasn't changed my mind.


For anyone wanting to see someone else's unbiased view of this debate (with lots of fact source references) take a look at:
http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

Res



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 05 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:


1)it would not make financial (never mind economic) sense for Res to drive from Harlow to the Midlands for his fuel.


2)Were it not for the tax subsidy for bio-road-fuels, you would be selling *waste* veg oil for the same price as fossil diesel - at a time when fossil energy prices are very high.


3)When you mention Caustic Soda in Biodiesel processing, you fail to mention that this is partly as a catalyst (promoting, but not consumed in the reaction)


4)Where's the profit to the "large oil companies" in a Toyota Prius, or even a better than averagely economical machine like the Audi A2?


5)My personal opinion is that the reason it is Biodiesel, rather than SVO, that is blended into fossil diesel is that it makes a better (engineering-wise) fuel. Not a conspiracy.

6)Let there be no doubt, I think that Straight Veg Oil is a much more ecologically attractive fuel than fossil diesel.
But I think that Biodiesel is at least as ecologically good, and, IMHO importantly, a more practical proposition for more people in this country. Certainly for those with modern engines and driving moderate mileages.


Hi Dougal,

thanks for the input but:-

1) "considering a drive down there myself" was said in jest, I would not actually drive all the way to manchester just to collect veg oil I can obtain locally.

2) 'IF' that were the case, then it would be a matter of choice for the consumer as to wether they wish to pay the same price for dinofuel or veg oil, their Choice not yours or mine. The cost of engine conversion go's against that choice at the moment.

3) You have not addressed wether there is a waste product or not in biodiesel production? Please clarify.

4) The profit for the oil companies is from the fuel required to run these cars on, which is a direct link. If the oil companies were to supply veg oil at the pumps as well, then it would again be consumer choice not oil companies choice. Supply and demand is consumer choice after all!

5) This is true at the moment, but it is down to us, the consumer, to apply pressure to push this conversion quicker. And who do we apply pressure to, oil companies. You can lobby politicians all you like but ultimately it comes down to oil companies choice, finantial or other wise.

6) Yes I will agree with that point, at the moment it is the more sensible persons choice. But us less serious people who care about the earth are still going to, and achive, in our own ways, a better way of life.

Guest






PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 05 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
When you state "the vast majority of Biodiesel production, mainly relies on the FOSSIL FUEL methanol", (your capital letters) I have to conclude that you've not heard it called "wood alcohol" and are unaware that methanol can be produced as easily as ethanol by fermentation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioalcohol


Thank you for your welcome to the forum dougal.

I dont believe we have any misunderstandings, just different views, we just arrived at a site in which you dougal appered to be slagging us off somewhat, and it still appears that way

The point we were getting at is the vast majority of methanol that goes into bio-diesel production IS made from fossil fuel. This is even confirmed with a quote through the link you posted above "Today, synthesis gas is most commonly produced from the methane component in natural gas rather than from coal" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol. Just because it can be made via a greener method does not mean that the majority actually is.

I will also repeat what it says on ATG's iso9001 cert "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts."

Often paper statistics dont hold true to actual experience, we have a number of customers who state that they get better MPG and / or have more available power and low end torque than with bio-diesel, we have NONE who state the other way round.

There is obviously a place for all bio-fuels, our customers like the idea that the fuel is pure and one does not have to go down the chemistry route to run his Diesel in an environmentally friendly manner. Each to their own.

We have customers who buy auxiliary heaters from us because of the very poor low temperature characteristics of bio-diesel. please see this link that states conola ester has a cloud point of 50 deg F (10 deg C), another reason that it is mainly sold as B5. http://muextension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/agengin/g01990.htm. Perhaps more important is the pour point of which rapeseed oil goes down to -30 deg C.

Bio-diesel may or maynot be the marginally better fuel, but at the chemical and ecological expence? We think not. We will continue to offer a genuine alternative.

We have many customers who travel for less than half price, they harvest free waste oil, process it, use it and pay 27.1p per litre fuel duty. Sorry we should have stated one third of the price on our website, not half. Before you state the obvious, no they are not really bothered about the time taken in terms of money. What matters is they can produce their fuel extremely cheaply, with no chemical risk or expence.

dieselveg



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 05 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

quote="dougal"]When you state "the vast majority of Biodiesel production, mainly relies on the FOSSIL FUEL methanol", (your capital letters) I have to conclude that you've not heard it called "wood alcohol" and are unaware that methanol can be produced as easily as ethanol by fermentation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioalcohol
[/quote]

Sorry forgot to log in

Thank you for your welcome to the forum dougal.

I dont believe we have any misunderstandings, just different views, we just arrived at a site in which you dougal appered to be slagging us off somewhat, and it still appears that way

The point we were getting at is the vast majority of methanol that goes into bio-diesel production IS made from fossil fuel. This is even confirmed with a quote through the link you posted above "Today, synthesis gas is most commonly produced from the methane component in natural gas rather than from coal" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol. Just because it can be made via a greener method does not mean that the majority actually is.

I will also repeat what it says on ATG's iso9001 cert "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts."

Often paper statistics dont hold true to actual experience, we have a number of customers who state that they get better MPG and / or have more available power and low end torque than with bio-diesel, we have NONE who state the other way round.

There is obviously a place for all bio-fuels, our customers like the idea that the fuel is pure and one does not have to go down the chemistry route to run his Diesel in an environmentally friendly manner. Each to their own.

We have customers who buy auxiliary heaters from us because of the very poor low temperature characteristics of bio-diesel. please see this link that states conola ester has a cloud point of 50 deg F (10 deg C), another reason that it is mainly sold as B5. http://muextension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/agengin/g01990.htm. Perhaps more important is the pour point of which rapeseed oil goes down to -30 deg C.

Bio-diesel may or maynot be the marginally better fuel, but at the chemical and ecological expence? We think not. We will continue to offer a genuine alternative.

We have many customers who travel for less than half price, they harvest free waste oil, process it, use it and pay 27.1p per litre fuel duty. Sorry we should have stated one third of the price on our website, not half. Before you state the obvious, no they are not really bothered about the time taken in terms of money. What matters is they can produce their fuel extremely cheaply, with no chemical risk or expence.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 05 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
ISO 9001 applies to the company not the product. It is about ... the company's Quality Control management and NOT how good the product is!

dieselveg wrote:
We can only presume he is harping on about our congratulating our supplier ATG in attaining the ISO9001 quality standard. On ATG's certificate it states that they have "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts." ... it certainly contributes to the prospective buyers confidence!!

dougal wrote:
Your website claims "The ONLY kit manufacturers to have attained the ISO 9001 Quality Standard for their vegetable oil kits." I repeat my point that ISO 9001 is not a product quality standard.

dieselveg wrote:
I will also repeat what it says on ATG's iso9001 cert "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts."



My point remains that there is a significant difference between the Dieselveg website claim:
"attained the ISO 9001 Quality Standard for their vegetable oil kits"
and the certificate saying they have
"estblished and applied a quality system"
This could easily but *inappropriately* "contribute to the prospective buyers confidence!!"


ISO 9001 is about the company's internal paperwork systems and **NOT** the kits.

The point is that simple.

And if that preliminary point cannot be understood, sadly, really, really sadly I don't see the point in further debate.


As I said before "I lose respect for" those incapable or unwilling to accept that paperwork and product are not the same.
It is simply a personal Litmus Test that I have found valuable when assessing the extent to which sales and marketing materials might "bend the truth".
And one I recommend to others.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 05 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Using Veg Oil, or Biodiesel, is obviously dramatically more environmentally responsible than using fossil diesel.

There may be dispute about whether Veg Oil or Biodiesel is the ecologically best choice, but purely on ecological considerations, they are fairly close competitors with conventional mineral petrochemical diesel miles behind.

Unlike Biodiesel, no vehicle manufacturer approves the use of Veg Oil, in any proportion. Even for this reason alone, Biodiesel represents the better potential route for the general public, whether Downsizer or not, to make a significant impact on fossil carbon usage and urban air quality, particularly particulate pollution.

Use of New Veg Oil, whether for direct use or conversion into Biodiesel is effectively economically ruled out by the UK tax combined with the cost of the oil - perhaps except in tanker-load quantities.
For DIYers, Waste Veg Oil is simpler to process to "fuel grade" than making Biodiesel. But WVO *does* need some processing. And Biodiesel homebrewing is not greatly different from home soap-making in principle. But the quantities are massively larger! And you might just think of going into the soap-making business to use up the glycerine produced...
Sadly for both, the use of *waste* oil may mean a sacrifice of control over the fuel qualities of the product - such aspects as the minimum usage temperature vary greatly depending on whether its rape, corn or palm oil...

In use, the Biodiesel driver has to make no real compromises to achieve ecological benefit. There is a tiny hit on performance and fuel economy, and one should be prepared to change one's fuel filter a couple of times as the Biodiesel can loosen pre-existing muck. And to wipe any spills off the paintwork.
However Veg Oil requires the enthusiast to firstly convert his vehicle. There are different styles of conversion - they operate differently - but one may have: an extra tank to accomodate, an unusual startup and/or shutdown procedure (and don't ever forget!), plus the need for more frequent engine oil changes.

Who are the biggest Biodiesel retailers in the UK?
Surprise! Its Asda and Tesco.
But they are *importing* the stuff from Europe.
For all the usual reasons, the UK needs to have its own biofuel industry. With UK crops being processed to oil in the UK and processed with BioMethanol to Biodiesel that can be blended into *all* the (ultra low sulphur) diesel fuel for everyone - just like in France and Germany. The proportion of bio could then be increased, in principle, all the way to 100% without a problem for modern vehicles - or even particular awareness by the drivers. And the proportion should be increased as production steps up. I'd expect the 100% Bio to be available as a consumer choice.

Expressed simply, I'd like to see Biodiesel sneaked into consumers tanks from every filling station in the country.
I welcome every Asda and Tesco Bio pump, and want to see more of them.
My estimate is that a single Tesco 5% Biodiesel pump probably does more global good than hundreds, if not thousands, of homebrew enthusiasts.

Veg Oil doesn't have that potential. Its for enthusiasts ONLY.
And its what the mass market does that will save or wreck the planet - not what enthusiasts do.

My personal conclusion is that Biodiesel (in any proportion) is a great ecological product for the general market, but for technically-minded enthusiasts it is a close call, but my inclination is towards Biodiesel, where there are "homebrew sessions" rather than daily considerations.

I am certainly a detached, and hopefully an objective observer.
I don't think that "bigots", zealots and even commercial interests, promoting one biofuel against the other helps to get the message across that increasing the use of *either* and *both* would produce ecological benefit.

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