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12Bore



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 9088
Location: Paddling in the Mersey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:14 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:

Well some of the more practical posts do have a cross over and regardless of your beliefs that can be useful to others.

I don't disagree that any viewpoint should be open to discussion but not every time someone mentions it. If after every post about animals or meat eating someone ranted about how evil it is to eat meat I don't think we'd tolerate that would we?


That entirely depends on how they make their point. If they just say 'its evil' that would get tiresome. If they make a good argument, whats the problem?

Because some people lack the self discipline to agree to disagree, that's when it turns personal.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:

Well some of the more practical posts do have a cross over and regardless of your beliefs that can be useful to others.

I don't disagree that any viewpoint should be open to discussion but not every time someone mentions it. If after every post about animals or meat eating someone ranted about how evil it is to eat meat I don't think we'd tolerate that would we?


That entirely depends on how they make their point. If they just say 'its evil' that would get tiresome. If they make a good argument, whats the problem?


Because not every thread has to turn into an argument!

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Treacodactyl wrote:

Because not every thread has to turn into an argument!


Not every thread does. Anyway, what turns threads into heated arguments is not reasonable criticism. Its sarcasm, scorn or insult.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35902
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

herbal wormers can be demonstrated to work

the census is a means to gain general data about a population

homeopathy is snake oil with no snake oil in it

etc

if i back those statements with facts from repeatable well conducted studies that is ethical and sustainable and we all learn ,if i am rude and call a fool a fool im out of order ,simple rules to follow ,i like that and i have learnt many things from such debates over many years

robust is fine by me ,robust can and should be polite

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35902
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:

Because not every thread has to turn into an argument!


Not every thread does. Anyway, what turns threads into heated arguments is not reasonable criticism. Its sarcasm, scorn or insult.


i recall a naughty corner thread that was titled in a very inflammatory way and ran to 2 pages of polite support with no arguing or rude words ,just care and kindness

Chez



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 35907
Location: The Hive of the Uberbee, Quantock Hills, Somerset
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

sean wrote:
Jonnyboy wrote:
Then why not use a particular website suited to that particular purpose? I wouldn't post on here if I wanted to discuss the best mountain bike tyres for muddy conditions, or whether the main themes of Paul's epistle to the Romans is more or less relevent in a non-patriarchal society.


Indeed. I think that the idea that ds can or should cater for everybody and everything under the sun is a bit problematic really.


But good manners surely should mean that thread hijack of every single thread about reiki/homeopathy etc filling up with a to and fro of 'it's all a load of twaddle' 'oh yes, I know it's all a load of twaddle' type posts from a small number of people could be toned down?

I appreciate that people have strong feelings about this sort of thing. It would be nice if those us of who have tried some of them and find them effective could chat about that without being drowned out.

Perhaps a bit more tolerance rather than a special place where the barrier of proof is set lower would suffice?

12Bore



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 9088
Location: Paddling in the Mersey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

eg. I sell audio cables, some cost 5 some cost 1000+, in some circles this is known as "foo". It may be that a metallurgist can prove scientifically that they all measure/test the same, but if it satisfies the customer and leaves them happy who is to say that all copper sounds the same?

paul1963



Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 2161
Location: No longer active on the forum
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Penny Outskirts wrote:
paul1963 wrote:
Bebo wrote:
Jo S wrote:
I suspect that bagpuss is saying that challenging religion and faith is one thing, but challenging a person for their faith is a different matter entirely.


Why? Religion has as little scientific proof behind it as the tooth fairy or homeopathy.


Yep, it's a matter of faith, and that is the point surely. Challenging a faith can be as offensive to someone with that faith as challenging their belief in it


But made up nonsense still must be challenged.


Faith is not made u nonsense though. One can argue against a doctrine or dogma but faith itself is one of those intangible things like, for example, love surely?

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5475
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

*gingerly dipping my toes in to test the water*

Much as Bebo dislikes organized religion, I dislike "bad" science. I try to be respectful to posters and practitioners, but I feel very strongly that it has a negative effect on the credibility of "hippy" "progressive" "downsizer" type folks (like myself), and as such feel that it is important to discuss it. As such, I don't mean to offend, but I hope that I can help inform people regarding the science, or lack thereof.

I started to see things with a more critical eye after hearing a former producer/retailer of Bach's remedies admit quite openly that he had been "scamming" people. Does that mean I think you shouldn't take them? No, it does not. If anything, the very fact that it makes you feel better is reason enough to do it. Will I sit idly by whilst someone espouses all of the benefits that it has, without explaining the mechanism (or even potential damage/toxicity of other products)? No I will not. I think it's unfair for people to be 'sold' on things that may not actually have any efficacy, without at least an acknowledgment that the product/technique hasn't been scientifically verified, as a bit of a disclaimer.

While I feel that I understand wanting to be able to share one's own experiences with different techniques and products, and read others' experiences, it's a fine line between "_____ seemed to have _______ effect on my _______" and "______ is a wonder product! Why doesn't everyone use it! Go out and buy _____ now!"

I think the trick lies in a balance of 'reason' respecting anecdotes and experiences from 'faith' and 'faith' respecting inquiry and critique by means of 'reason'.

I am a 'hippy organic farmer' but I've also studied a lot of the science behind it. As such, I get frustrated talking with folks/friends about biodynamic farming - mostly because I don't feel like my 'scientific' viewpoint is being recognized, because biodynamic effects "can't be quantified by science". While I don't agree with a lot of the biodynamic treatments, I will stand by the assertion that biodynamic farmers are among the best in the world if only for the intense care and attention they pay to their land and crops.

Chez



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 35907
Location: The Hive of the Uberbee, Quantock Hills, Somerset
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Slim wrote:
I think the trick lies in a balance of 'reason' respecting anecdotes and experiences from 'faith' and 'faith' respecting inquiry and critique by means of 'reason'.


Absolutely.

T.G



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 7280
Location: Somewhere you're not
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Slim wrote:
I think the trick lies in a balance of 'reason' respecting anecdotes and experiences from 'faith' and 'faith' respecting inquiry and critique by means of 'reason'.


That's very true and I for one wasn't meaning to imply no counter comments should be made.

More that unless people feel able to speak freely without open scorn these debates/discussions never get off the marks and jumping to conclusions that the person posting might believe whole heartedly in what they are asking or posting about is not helpful.

They may simply be exploring their own knowledge amongst people who they regarded as able to give a reasoned and balance differing perspective AND are willing to read the differing scientific point of view if put in a polite manner.

Chez



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 35907
Location: The Hive of the Uberbee, Quantock Hills, Somerset
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

T.G wrote:
They may simply be exploring their own knowledge amongst people who they regarded as able to give a reasoned and balance differing perspective AND are willing to read the differing scientific point of view if put in a polite manner.


I think that's the thing I find wiggs me out about some of the 'scientific' responses on this kind of thread - some of them can be so scorn-filled. It is not nice.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35902
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

i respect the right of folk to disagree with me ,sometimes they convince me to see things their way ,sometimes not ,

this is how we learn

paul1963



Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 2161
Location: No longer active on the forum
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

T.G wrote:
Slim wrote:
I think the trick lies in a balance of 'reason' respecting anecdotes and experiences from 'faith' and 'faith' respecting inquiry and critique by means of 'reason'.


That's very true and I for one wasn't meaning to imply no counter comments should be made.

More that unless people feel able to speak freely without open scorn these debates/discussions never get off the marks and jumping to conclusions that the person posting might believe whole heartedly in what they are asking or posting about is not helpful.

They may simply be exploring their own knowledge amongst people who they regarded as able to give a reasoned and balance differing perspective AND are willing to read the differing scientific point of view if put in a polite manner.


Tis all true and let us not forget the science is not infallible either......

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35902
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Chez wrote:
T.G wrote:
They may simply be exploring their own knowledge amongst people who they regarded as able to give a reasoned and balance differing perspective AND are willing to read the differing scientific point of view if put in a polite manner.


I think that's the thing I find wiggs me out about some of the 'scientific' responses on this kind of thread - some of them can be so scorn-filled. It is not nice.


i apologise if my defense of fact and logic can be seen as scorn ,when i cant explain i will say so ,same if i believe something based on subjective experience ,im open to new ideas ,tested fact and logic is very practical and starts as an untested idea

odd we are rerunning the enlightenment 300 years later

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