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should it have been more than a caution?
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Ginkotree



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: south west wales
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 13 11:42 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Obviously when I spoke to my friends were still in shock by it all but it was definately a gun that needed a liscence and I can get them to have more information, I have arranged to be in touch again later in the week so I shall have more to suggest to them now.It appears there are a lot of details that affect the rules and regulations and an authoritive help and guidance is needed to ensure thier reassurance.
The gun owners phonecall was an oppertunity for him to be checked out and it be His own doing...with time passed they do not want it to be Them that can be blamed for anything...so a BASC enquirey follow up might be the way forward.

Ginkotree



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: south west wales
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

vegplot wrote:
toggle wrote:

would the caution have any effect on the gun owner's licence?


More than likely. A caution will possibly mean he won't be able to hold a licence, at least for a while. It depends on the type of firearm.


That is reassuring..they probably have a proceedure to follow through..
Thanks for all your input on this...it is a frightening subject when folk are suffering lifes trials and not thinking rationally.

toggle



Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 11622
Location: truro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

vegplot wrote:
toggle wrote:

would the caution have any effect on the gun owner's licence?


More than likely. A caution will possibly mean he won't be able to hold a licence, at least for a while. It depends on the type of firearm.


then i'm wondering if the police thought a caution was something he would sign, not realising the consequence. wheras he could have claimed an honest mistake and possibly contested any charge in court. a lot of people don't know a caution is an admittance of a crime and signing one gives you a criminal record. and i'd think the best thing to do if someone is playing moron games involving firearms is to remove the guns asap.

or am i crediting the local police with too much here?

Ginkotree



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: south west wales
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Given the circumstances,My instinct was screaming for the police to go and remove all guns and I cant understand why this was not done...
Now, it has become more awkward to make that happen ..stirring up the wasp nest...but If BASC do an enquirey that could seem like it was not coming directly from my friends..

mark



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 2186
Location: Leeds
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I think your friends would be best to contact the police in writing and say something like...

"Could you please confirm to me that XYZ is not longer in possession of firearms. By leaving his weapon in a car outside my property and falsely reporting me for the possession of firearms he has revealed his ill will towards me and possibly some (possibly temporary) unbalance in his mind or emotional state - and has also quite possibly made a veiled threat in revealing to me that he holds these firearms.

I am naturally anxious that he might think to use his firearm against me in some way, or otherwise seek to cause me harm.

If XYZ is in possession of firearms could you please advise me of what further steps I or you could take to secure my safety and the protection of my property..

I am copying this letter to....."

I suggest it is copied to solicitor / MP / police commissioner or anyone who the police know might hold them accountable if they don't cover themselves

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 33664
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I donnt think the police have any business telling you what I legally own.

Perhaps a caution is enough. If it prevents him keeping a gun, with minimal cost annd hassle, is that enough?

Ginkotree



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: south west wales
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I think mark has worded the situation well for a letter..with a little tweek it could be used for the BASC perhaps, as I am not sure the police will want to follow up when they think they have dealt with the event.Shame that peoples fear for thier safety comes down to cost and hassle.
I shall tell my friends all your suggestions and then they can choose what they wish to do.

mark



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 2186
Location: Leeds
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nick wrote:
I donnt think the police have any business telling you what I legally own.

Perhaps a caution is enough. If it prevents him keeping a gun, with minimal cost annd hassle, is that enough?


That was not the point of the post - it was to nudge them into ensuring that after the caution was given they ensured the firearm was no longer in his possession, and they took reasonable action to prevent any further harassment.

And apart from anything else - if you are right that you can't have a firearm after a caution (and I'm not sure of the law on that) then the police are being asked to confirm that he is not in possession of something he would be illegally (not legally) in possession of that you already know he owns (as the police even asked you to return it to him )

stumbling goat



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1972

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

toggle wrote:
vegplot wrote:
toggle wrote:

would the caution have any effect on the gun owner's licence?


More than likely. A caution will possibly mean he won't be able to hold a licence, at least for a while. It depends on the type of firearm.


then i'm wondering if the police thought a caution was something he would sign, not realising the consequence. wheras he could have claimed an honest mistake and possibly contested any charge in court. a lot of people don't know a caution is an admittance of a crime and signing one gives you a criminal record. and i'd think the best thing to do if someone is playing moron games involving firearms is to remove the guns asap.

or am i crediting the local police with too much here?


The strength of evidence required for an "official caution" or "criminal caution" to be first considered and then offered is the same as that or a charge. An admission and a signature accepting the caution is also required for the "accused" to accept the caution, and the consequences. The issue here is that most people do not understand the terms used by the Police and in what context they are used and sometimes mean. I am sure the Police would not rely on that misunderstanding to inadvertently mislead people or fob them off with carefully worded explanations which on subsequent examination may prove to be such a misunderstanding.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/police/firearms/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary

Edit to add link above

sg

toggle



Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 11622
Location: truro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

that may be the official line, but i've heard of more than one instance of the police trying to bully someone into accepting a caution after a completely evidence free complaint was made.

stumbling goat



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1972

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

toggle wrote:
that may be the official line, but i've heard of more than one instance of the police trying to bully someone into accepting a caution after a completely evidence free complaint was made.


Really? If that were the case, then that caution/conviction would be overturned as soon as the person left the station and made a complaint about the process. The Police staff involved would be subject to discipline and most likely criminal charges.

In any of the instances you have heard about have the maligned people taken the very simple and straightforward step to get their caution or conviction revoked?

sg

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 33664
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

In what reality is it simple?

stumbling goat



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1972

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nick wrote:
In what reality is it simple?


It is a lot simpler than trying to work out your question Nick

Perhaps you could rephrase it?

sg

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

stumbling goat wrote:
toggle wrote:
that may be the official line, but i've heard of more than one instance of the police trying to bully someone into accepting a caution after a completely evidence free complaint was made.


Really? If that were the case, then that caution/conviction would be overturned as soon as the person left the station and made a complaint about the process. The Police staff involved would be subject to discipline and most likely criminal charges.


It certainly doesn't appear to be as simple as you suggest. This isn't the story I was looking for but there's several examples.

http://www.politics.co.uk/opinion-formers/british-association-for-shooting-and-conservation-basc/article/basc-firearms-team-gets-caution-revoked-for-member

stumbling goat



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1972

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The story you link to appears to be simple enough.

sg

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