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Help - What do you need to do to pay someone?
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Pel



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 13 9:56 pm    Post subject: Help - What do you need to do to pay someone?  Reply with quote    

Ok, so from september*, i want to pay someone to do my sittings, under my business name.. now before i started the job i'm doing now, i didnt want to do this because i'd have to manage people.. ironically i'm now doing this (ok techincally just their paperwork rather than them, but thats the part i didnt want to do) and about 80 of them.
So I'm thinking i might as well look into how complex it is to take on someone.

Please can someone tell me what i need to do for this? I know i need employers liabilty, but do i need to do PAYE, and how do i do this (i have been reading in the threads below), do I need to make my business a company? rather than just being a sole-trader.. don't really have any idea on the whole thing.. please help

* Possibly before this. At present I have someone in carmarthenshire who has taken on a few sittings for me (she works 3 jobs inc. mine), but she will hopefully be starting an animal care course in september.

john of wessex



Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 2130

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 13 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Can you treat them as a self employed contractor??

Pel



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 13 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I think that would be best for the time being, as in winter there isnt much work and I don't really want to pay out if they arent actually working, but between march-October they could be fully booked if they so wished to be.

I'm thinking i'd keep the work diary though, and quote and I'd go with them on the first few intial visits where you meet the client and animals.. i'd go to show how its done/train them and once they were confident they could do this on there own. The actual sitting would just be done with them on their own, unless they wanted me their on the first few, but that might be tricky for the client.

At present my insurance allows 50days of temporay cover.. so Would just adding employers liablty cover them for all year round insurance?

stumbling goat



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1989

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 13 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/es-fs1.pdf

The link above may help you determine what you can or can not do regarding employed or self employed status of those who work for you? You may wish to treat them as a self employed contractor but if HMRC say you can not then maybe you can not?

Do you keep written auditable records of the training that you give to your sitters?

Do you have a job description that determines what they have to do and are responsible for?

Do you issue instructions of "what if's", so in the event of an incident the SEC knows what to do, all part of managing risk.

On the little information you provide it would seem as though you could treat them as self employed. And as far as I am aware you invoice your client, then the "Self employed contractor" invoices you.

Are all the SEC's named on yor PLI policy?

Sounds like you ave a good business running here, good luck with it.

sg

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34272
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 13 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Isn't it for the employee rather than the employer to determine if they can be self employed, from a tax pov? The employer doesn't have to know what else the employee does, but the employee will obviously know if they are doing multiple contracts? I know it's not that simple however.

stumbling goat



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1989

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 13 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

You could adopt that position Nick. But, what if you were wrong, and I believe that you are. If HMRC then came after you for the relevant records, Nat Ins, real-time PAYE and all sorts of other things?

The link provide a relatively clear guide to who would be considered self employed and who is employed.

In the example given the person who does 3 other jobs might be considered to be S/E as they work for others and if they can turn down the work offered.

sg

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34272
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 13 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Oh, I agree, and talking to HMRC is the way forward, but do you know your employees can/cannot take extra work?

Either way, I suspect this is where a half decent accountant will pay for themselves quickly. Or make an appointment to go visit your tax office.

Pel



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 13 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

double post, where's delete gone?

Last edited by Pel on Wed Jun 05, 13 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

Pel



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 13 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

stumbling goat wrote:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/es-fs1.pdf

The link above may help you determine what you can or can not do regarding employed or self employed status of those who work for you? You may wish to treat them as a self employed contractor but if HMRC say you can not then maybe you can not?

Do you keep written auditable records of the training that you give to your sitters?

I have not given my current one any training

Do you have a job description that determines what they have to do and are responsible for?

No, but it would be impossible for me to do that for myself, it would have to be very generalised

Do you issue instructions of "what if's", so in the event of an incident the SEC knows what to do, all part of managing risk.
At present, I take the phone call, quote and pass the client direct on to the SEC, so no I dont have any


On the little information you provide it would seem as though you could treat them as self employed. And as far as I am aware you invoice your client, then the "Self employed contractor" invoices you.

They do their own self assesment, with their main job working for their parents, 2nd at an animal sancturay and clients/potential clients are 3rd in line

Are all the SEC's named on yor PLI policy?
At present no, as my insurers said i dont need to

Sounds like you ave a good business running here, good luck with it.

sg



However I would like to be able to answer yes to all the above, when I do it properly.. I'm looking to rent a smallholding, in an attempt to train someone, or at least use my own animals to see if they actually have the experience they say they have. (I have yet to read the link, that will have to wait for the weekend)

stumbling goat



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1989

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 13 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

One view might be that the less involvement you have in the relationship between sitter and client, the better?

You are then effectively an introduction agent.

If you go with the sitter and train them to show them how it is done and make sure they are okay (your post at 01.06 11.48pm) then you might be liable in the event of issue? In which case what the "training" consisted of, what you "showed" them would be relevant to protect yourself.

A job description or role need not be exhaustive nor overly prescriptive but again if someone asked you what the job description is/was you may feel happier producing some sort of guide rather than saying there isn't one.

I don't mean to sound all doom and gloom, but you do seem to have a little gem here and simple steps you can take to make sure that you are covered, your sitters have a clear idea of what is expected of them and your clients know how well organised and monitored or mentored your sitters are the better, IMHO.

It is always nice to be able to satisfactorily answer the "what if" without losing sleep.

Hope it works out for you.

sg

woodsprite



Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 2943
Location: North Herefordshire
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 13 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Seems to me that you need advice from a small business organisation rather than very well meaning opinions from web friends who may or may not have the correct up to date info.
I'll shut up now.

Pel



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 13 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

woodsprite wrote:
Seems to me that you need advice from a small business organisation rather than very well meaning opinions from web friends who may or may not have the correct up to date info.
I'll shut up now.


Where can i find one of these? They sound useful. I agree i would need to get advice from different places/organisations.

Thanks

earthyvirgo



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 7972
Location: creating prints in the loft, Gerlan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 13 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Before you go down the road of Employer, I'd say take a long, hard think if this is really what you want to do.

Yes, there are benefits (can't actually think of one right now! ..yes I can, being able to take on more work, which is why you're looking at it I think pel)) but the responsibility and overheads (time, stress etc) are, unless you're a very chilled out person, much greater than you might imagine.

EV

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4340
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 13 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Pel wrote:
woodsprite wrote:
Seems to me that you need advice from a small business organisation rather than very well meaning opinions from web friends who may or may not have the correct up to date info.
I'll shut up now.


Where can i find one of these? They sound useful. I agree i would need to get advice from different places/organisations.

Thanks


Antur Teifi in Newcastle Emlyn,they also have an office in Lampeter they use,opposite J Williams supermarket/china shop.

But there are loads of them around,all over Wales,funded by the Assembly.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 11947

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 13 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

There may also be one run by your local authority. We used to have one here and it was very useful to us when we first started.

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