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Ditch responsibility!
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Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 9537

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 6:01 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Rob explained it better. One thing to note is that historically this has nothing to do with water management but a good way of showing a boundary. You will only know the answer in the OP case by consulting the deeds.

We have lots of ditch and bank systems going through the woods, including several that we know were divisions between different land holdings, and the most marked one, the parish boundary. We think this one dates back over 1000 years.

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 33798
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

As suggested, historical generalisations won't help. Have a look on your deeds.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The deeds might not help, depends how detailed they are, but best to check.

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 33798
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

If the deeds don't show it, then there's no definitive proof of ownership, and therefore, responsibility. They will help immensely. That's the thing about legal documents.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

My deeds just show a red line, which in reality would translate to a meter or so wide line on the ground and doesn't really mean much. Obviously other deeds may be more helpful but I often wonder why deeds aren't more useful.

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 33798
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Does the text help? Mine specify borders.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nothing in the text IIRC, there's some wording on the plan but I don't know how much is legally binding. I know much of the wording was removed as the sale went on and on a couple of boundaries we just know we own them but not what they are.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Deeds, particularly if the land hasn't changed hands for a long time, often contain points of reference that have changed over time, if the ditch has been widened or silted up any reference to where the 'eastern-most bank top' is could be open to interpretation.

derbyshiredowser



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 750
Location: derbyshire
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 14 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

gz wrote:
What about roadside ditches?


As a External planner for BT in a previous life the quickest way to establish ditch ownership is to erect a telegraph pole near it then wait for wayleave payment demands.

gz



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 6176
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 14 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Many roadside ditches here are clogged up and not working- wondered if the council owned verges?
But then if the bank was raised on the field side, farmer would own the ditch?

Thinking back to our property deeds years ago, they were delineated by a red line,but a short line at 90 degrees showed who owned the wall/hedge.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 14 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

gz wrote:
Many roadside ditches here are clogged up and not working- wondered if the council owned verges?
But then if the bank was raised on the field side, farmer would own the ditch?

Thinking back to our property deeds years ago, they were delineated by a red line,but a short line at 90 degrees showed who owned the wall/hedge.


Yes, many roadside ditches are 'owned' by the adjacent agricultural land, rather than the road builders. Some are managed by drainage boards, in the flat areas, and some are created for the road itself, but usually in the latter case, where a new road is created, they create a french drain instead of a ditch.

pollyanna



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 14 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

When the council replaces a ditch with a drain they don't ask the permission of the adjacent landowner, they just do it.

So who owns the ditch which becomes a drain?

Councils also accept/take responsibility for cutting roadside banks, hedges and verges and keeping drain-grids clear. That's if anybody does them. So presumably the Highways own the roads.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 14 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Highways own trunk roads & if the council doesn't own the ditch they can be legally held to account if they modify it without the owners permission (likely made to purchase it). Where council land and private land meet is defined (in East Yorkshire, at least).

pollyanna



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 14 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

When the council arrived to culvert the ditch down the road, we weren't going to stop them as it was a job that needed doing, but I don't remember their asking permission (Pembrokeshire).

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 14 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

You could have stopped them though, if they were working on your private land, but regardless you still own the land up to the original boundary, although it might take more legal work to establish where the boundary is, if the point of reference has been removed in the process.

The planning process they went through may have referred to this (if they don't know the owner(s) it would have to be advertised in the local press) & you may have missed your opportunity to challenge it.

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