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Biodiversity conservation The key, reducing meat consumption
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Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 15 12:03 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:


You are just like most of the population - convenience is king in food retail. And that's why we don't sell many joints - steaks, mince & dice are the most popular cuts these days.
To be fair most people don't have that luxury of choice.
It requires two incomes to pay the mortgage, working hours are longer.
Most houses are too small to fit a decent freezer so convenience isn't a luxury it's essential.
The days of Mum at home raising the family & cooking a hot meal for hubby when he comes home from work are long gone.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 15 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:


You are just like most of the population - convenience is king in food retail. And that's why we don't sell many joints - steaks, mince & dice are the most popular cuts these days.
To be fair most people don't have that luxury of choice.
It requires two incomes to pay the mortgage, working hours are longer.
Most houses are too small to fit a decent freezer so convenience isn't a luxury it's essential.
The days of Mum at home raising the family & cooking a hot meal for hubby when he comes home from work are long gone.


Yeah, but it's all about priorities - we live in a caravan but still manage to have a decent freezer in.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10714

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 15 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

It is partly choice as Rob says. I won't say I was perfect, but when son was growing up and I was working, we did have meals made from scratch most of the time. I discovered the farm shops I currently used when he was in his teens I think; it was the time of the BSE crisis and my other sources of decent meat had disappeared, and I never have liked supermarket.

We were fortunate that we had a reasonable sized house and a garden, although when we were first married we did look after an old ladies garden as ours was small. One of the early cases of garden sharing.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 15 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

George Mombiot in Mondays Guardian.
Think dairy farming is benign? Our rivers tell a different story.
Quote:
While the state of rivers in this country remains dire, as a result of our excessive use of water and of chronic, low-level contamination, the number of severe pollution incidents has declined in all sectors except one. Farming. In this case, it is rising.

Farming is now, by a long way, the nationís leading cause of severe water pollution. And of all kinds of farming, dairy production causes the greatest number of serious incidents.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 15 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
George Mombiot in Mondays Guardian.
Think dairy farming is benign? Our rivers tell a different story.
Quote:
While the state of rivers in this country remains dire, as a result of our excessive use of water and of chronic, low-level contamination, the number of severe pollution incidents has declined in all sectors except one. Farming. In this case, it is rising.

Farming is now, by a long way, the nationís leading cause of severe water pollution. And of all kinds of farming, dairy production causes the greatest number of serious incidents.


Yes, that needs sorting, but it's not because we're producing or consuming more than we used to. That said we didn't have NVZs back in the day, which have been a major cost to the industry in recent years which has no doubt accelerated the intensification and therefore the number of serious incidents.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 15 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

NVZs?

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 15 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nitrate Vulnerable Zones, that are forcing dairy farmers to improve their slurry storage and handling facilities.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 15 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Mistress Rose wrote:
It is partly choice as Rob says. I won't say I was perfect, but when son was growing up and I was working, we did have meals made from scratch most of the time. I discovered the farm shops I currently used when he was in his teens I think; it was the time of the BSE crisis and my other sources of decent meat had disappeared, and I never have liked supermarket.

We were fortunate that we had a reasonable sized house and a garden, although when we were first married we did look after an old ladies garden as ours was small. One of the early cases of garden sharing.


I don't expect everyone to be perfect either but I would happily wager that 'meat free monday' would be a more powerful tool if it were actively encouraging people to buy local one day a week. Not that everything local is perfect, but it's a lot less easy to hide imperfections if you know where your food was grown and you know your customers may be walking past than if it were shipped from the far east, as many of the dairy replacements are.

The problem I have is that people may live near the Ings, (but not many of them, because we don't have a high population density) but relatively few care about them. Meanwhile there are people in central London who do care and take the time out to support it.

Legislation as a means of controlling bad behaviour is valuable, but without the economic incentive to choose the better option it is not very valuable. There are two groups destroying our biodiversity - those who don't care, and those who care too much, and it is the latter group that hold the power to make the real difference but choose not to because they believe that the more extreme approach is the better one.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 15 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
Nitrate Vulnerable Zones, that are forcing dairy farmers to improve their slurry storage and handling facilities.
There lies the problem.
Everywhere should be a 'Nitrate Vulnerable Zone'. & what should be an asset used to improve fertility has become an expensive waste issue with increasing pollution incidents.
The retailers (& the politicians who got rid of the MMB) are to blame for the low prices forcing intensification not the consumers in this instance.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 15 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Many more places did used to be NVZs, including here , but they have been reclassified as improvements have been made.

I don't think that consumers are part of the problem but they are certainly part of the solution.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 15 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
Many more places did used to be NVZs, including here , but they have been reclassified as improvements have been made.

I don't think that consumers are part of the problem but they are certainly part of the solution.
Only if the consumer is given all the facts.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 15 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
Many more places did used to be NVZs, including here , but they have been reclassified as improvements have been made.

I don't think that consumers are part of the problem but they are certainly part of the solution.
Only if the consumer is given all the facts.


And not shrouded in dogma, yes.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 15 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

In the interests of having all the facts...

...and...

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10714

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 15 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

No time to look at the first one at the moment, but the second one was interesting.

Ruminants have shaped the flora of the whole world since the dinosaurs, so getting rid of them is counter intuitive to me.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 15 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

My internet speed & bandwidth is to narrow for video, the article is interesting.
It's primarily talking about maintaining fertility not increasing biodiversity but interesting none the less.
There is one glaring omission from all sides of the argument that no one wants to talk about.
There are parts of the world where the majority of the population are vegetarian & livestock animals are mainly just draught animals so few in number.
They produce vast amounts of food from very small plots.
I know climate plays a part, but the main means of maintaining fertility is human excrement not bovine.
Would we need as many cattle & sheep to maintain fertility on our holdings in lieu of bagged nitrogen if we where able to utilise a vast resource.
Night soil is something that in a sustainable environment will need addressing.
Not only from the point of a wasted resource for soil building. But from the waste of good potted water to flush it away, that is becoming very scarce in some areas.

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