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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35422
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 12:09 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

when i had the allotment and therefore access to a large variety ,over sufficient and very cheap supply of organic veg there were plenty of veggie meals but the veg was also a good mixture with free range still twitching trout and greyling and ings beef and home made bacon in a healty diet suitable for human physiology .

when i was vegan i was buying veg of unknown system that had often been imported from the other side of the planet and even making meals from ingredients with air miles which may be "better" than industrial ready meals on several grounds but is still well below allotment and the best flesh.

that the eat less meat/go veggie chap has found a way to promote his ready meals is good business but i dont believe coca cola will teach the world to sing and i dont see his model as particularly ethical or comparing like with like or based on facts and sound logic.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Mistress Rose wrote:
Tavascarow, my term rampant vegan was used exactly the way Rob and HL suggest. There are sensible vegans who will agree to differ with omnivores and have researched their subject properly, and there are the sort Rob, and sadly I, have come across who have this zealous idea that if we stopped eating animals and exploiting them, the world would be a lovely place where everyone would eat well on vegetables. They haven't though the thing through and tend to be confrontational.

I didn't know a veggie started the eat less meat campaign to sell ready meals Rob. I like some vegetarian meals, including some vegetarian ready made burger things, but they are the ones that contain vegetables not the ones made up to look like real burgers with soya and other unidentifiable muck and lots of flavouring.
My bold.
Where's the proof of that? The UN are saying we should be eating less meat to combat climate change.
The world health organisation are saying too much (poor quality) red meat in the diet is a major cause of cardiovascular ilness.
People have been saying uit for about twenty years.
I've been saying it for ten & I'm omnivorous.
Now all that is irrelevant because supposedly the whole thing was started by someone selling ready meals.
Where & who is this mystical vegan ready meal guru?
As I said earlier 'delusional'.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
Mistress Rose wrote:
Tavascarow, my term rampant vegan was used exactly the way Rob and HL suggest. There are sensible vegans who will agree to differ with omnivores and have researched their subject properly, and there are the sort Rob, and sadly I, have come across who have this zealous idea that if we stopped eating animals and exploiting them, the world would be a lovely place where everyone would eat well on vegetables. They haven't though the thing through and tend to be confrontational.

I didn't know a veggie started the eat less meat campaign to sell ready meals Rob. I like some vegetarian meals, including some vegetarian ready made burger things, but they are the ones that contain vegetables not the ones made up to look like real burgers with soya and other unidentifiable muck and lots of flavouring.
My bold.
Where's the proof of that? The UN are saying we should be eating less meat to combat climate change.
The world health organisation are saying too much (poor quality) red meat in the diet is a major cause of cardiovascular ilness.
People have been saying uit for about twenty years.
I've been saying it for ten & I'm omnivorous.
Now all that is irrelevant because supposedly the whole thing was started by someone selling ready meals.
Where & who is this mystical vegan ready meal guru?
As I said earlier 'delusional'.


McCartney & family, in 2009, began the most recent & popular movement that urges people to cut down, focussing on Mondays. He sold out the business his wife started to Heinz after her death, but seems to have maintained an element of control. The website doesn't mention supporting small, sustainable farmers of any description, as we're often told it does by organisations & individuals keen to promote the concept.

Personally I find the whole rock/pop stars making their millions on a completely unnecessary, frivolous industry and then using them to destroy other people's livelihoods a bit hard to swallow. I support anyone who chooses to invest their money in my own industry and shows us how it's done in their minds eye, but not sitting on the sidelines, slinging mud.

However, my recent discussions with our vegan friends & everyone here has convinced me to start a new product/project, which I'll be launching very soon.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Speaking of which, Monbiot was on the radio earlier, saying that there are too many (farm) animals on the planet. As per usual he said some OTT things about farming, but one thing we do agree on is the need to eat more pests, rabbits, squirrels, deer, etc.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

So Linda Mc Cartney was the devil incarnate, but no mention of the likes of Bernard Mathews who was responsible for the last bird flue outbreak! Or Mc Donalds responsible for more childhood obesity & diabetes than any other cause worldwide?
Perspective is a thing that appears lacking in the carnivorous cranium IMHO.
The UN have said to combat global warming & feed the world population, agriculture needs to shift from industrial to organic. & the future should be small mixed organic family farms.
Part of that will mean eating less animal protein because its current production methods (generalising) are unsustainable.
I appreciate in circumstances like yours the opposite is true, but you are a minority in the meat industry as you know.
That I would have thought would be something we here on DS would be supporting & celebrating not deriding.
Calling vegans rampant & not accepting the plain facts as to how our current way of life is affecting the future for the coming generations is as I said delusional IMHO.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35422
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

linda m was charming and her pasties would have been perfect if they had a decent amount of chuck steak in them.she could also cook a decent fried egg butty.

as a slight aside her photographic career doing portraits was kicked off and enhanced by kieth ewart (an ace snapper and very nice chap) setting up the subject,lighting ,camera and processing so she had the full responsibility for pressing the button.

imho the current style of the industrial food business is not the intention her work to provide affordable, almost edible veggie ready meals.

Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15237
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Anyone posted this one yet?
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/feb/03/being-a-little-bit-vegan-is-completely-oxymoronic?CMP=share_btn_fb

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
So Linda Mc Cartney was the devil incarnate, but no mention of the likes of Bernard Mathews who was responsible for the last bird flue outbreak! Or Mc Donalds responsible for more childhood obesity & diabetes than any other cause worldwide?
Perspective is a thing that appears lacking in the carnivorous cranium IMHO.


That's not perspective, that's relevance. We were talking about the eat less meat thing, neither Bernard Matthews or Ronald McDonald did that. They did other things that are another subject. Just because we are not discussing the huge increase in poultry meat or the super-carbing of fast food in this post doesn't mean we agree with either! I also didn't include domestic violence, but again, that doesn't mean I'm all for it.

Tavascarow wrote:
The UN have said to combat global warming & feed the world population, agriculture needs to shift from industrial to organic. & the future should be small mixed organic family farms.
Part of that will mean eating less animal protein because its current production methods (generalising) are unsustainable.
I appreciate in circumstances like yours the opposite is true, but you are a minority in the meat industry as you know.
That I would have thought would be something we here on DS would be supporting & celebrating not deriding.


Minorities need a strong voice to get themselves heard. I'm also a minority in most places that eating less meat is discussed, generally it is taken over by vegans.

It is the generalising that is the problem. 'Meat' is a generalisation. I don't support the current consumption levels of poultry, or pork, or seafood, which have all risen dramatically (though I do recognise their role in reducing food waste). I do defend the eating of beef and other potentially grassfed meat, which has actually declined slightly per capita, and only risen with the population.

My stance is that we should eat as much as we like (of anything, even vegetables or ready meals), but make sustainable production the baseline. Then both price and consumption will be controlled by what we can produce. If the vegans are right and we can't produce the same amount, then the price will rise. If they are wrong and we can produce the same amount while making a positive contribution to the environment then happy days! As I've said before (and you seemingly prefer to ignore) it is not the principle of eating less meat that I object to, but the way the message is presented that means people are more likely to ditch meat completely and not support change, instead supporting unsustainable vegetable production from imports/agri-business instead.

I also say that we can't eat negative meat to counter the excesses of China. Nor does our not eating sustainably produced UK meat help in any way the poor sod who can't feed himself in Africa.

If the money saved on meat was paid to farmers in higher prices for their produce, there would be an incentive for change and I would be all for it. If the money saved is pocketed by the vegan, or by the company making the milk/meat replacement (which is often sold at equal or higher prices because of it's ethical USP) then that is doing nothing to support better farming methods.

Tavascarow wrote:
Calling vegans rampant & not accepting the plain facts as to how our current way of life is affecting the future for the coming generations is as I said delusional IMHO.


I've never called a vegan rampant. In fact I've never called a vegan anything, although I've wanted to in response I haven't sunk to that level. When you hear some of the things I get called for being a farmer, 'a rampant meat eater' would make a light-hearted refreshing change.

As for accepting facts, I do, I have never denied the facts. I may have pointed out that they don't suggest what many claim they do, but I've accepted them.

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4247
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

It is the complete opposite,its the vagans that are not accepting facts ,and are in denial themselves,
Do they realise where their food comes from,and what destruction of habitats it takes to produce this food.

I reckon their all a steak short of a kilo myself.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

What is 'potentially grass fed'? other than an excuse to support unsustainable production.
It's either grass fed or its not.
I know gardeners who think they are organic but still use growmore & reach for the slug pellets when their greens get eaten.
Are they 'potentially organic' or ill informed?

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

An animal that can be grass fed, as opposed to a chicken or a pig that are so often sold as being 'grassfed' when what they mean is free range. They include the ones that have been moved off the hills and lowland grazing Marsh & onto unsustainable annual crops. (In case you hadn't noticed, I wanna move them back).

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

While everyone is wasting their time throwing insults at farmers for daring to farm, factory farming & agribusiness is moving on. Meat isn't 'cheap', it's extremely expensive and profits come from replacing it with crops or cultures. And to produce these crops we have more and more factory farms that go unchallenged. We're all getting left behind. This is the future.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The NFU have been at it again.

Quote:
Add this to the plethora of studies that show diets high in fruits and vegetables can reduce obesity, diabetes and many cancers and you would think that our health problems were solved. All we have to do now is eat more fruit and veg.

But we still donít do it!

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
An animal that can be grass fed, as opposed to a chicken or a pig that are so often sold as being 'grassfed' when what they mean is free range. They include the ones that have been moved off the hills and lowland grazing Marsh & onto unsustainable annual crops. (In case you hadn't noticed, I wanna move them back).
So beef is ok because it can 'potentially' be fed grass, even if it's fattened on maize silage & soya protein.
Chickens & pigs can be (& used to be) self sustaining when not kept intensively.
So all of them have 'potential' not just beef.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 16 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
An animal that can be grass fed, as opposed to a chicken or a pig that are so often sold as being 'grassfed' when what they mean is free range. They include the ones that have been moved off the hills and lowland grazing Marsh & onto unsustainable annual crops. (In case you hadn't noticed, I wanna move them back).
So beef is ok because it can 'potentially' be fed grass, even if it's fattened on maize silage & soya protein.


No, my bold.

Tavascarow wrote:
Chickens & pigs can be (& used to be) self sustaining when not kept intensively.


That doesn't make them grassfed though.
.
Tavascarow wrote:
So all of them have 'potential' not just beef.


We were eating 1/3 of the amount of these meats.

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