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jema
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28118
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 20 3:39 pm Post subject:

Not getting great answers when googling.

We are agreed concrete, I am thinking driving in some metal spikes I have, then pouring concrete into a timber frame and aiming to have the hole down to ground level and be something like 0.75m2 by 0.5m deep.

Now here's the question. I have a little sharp sand, but mostly builders sand and 20mm gravel in excess.

Would doing this in layers with a building sand gravel mix on the lower layers be a terrible economy.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6540
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 20 11:20 am Post subject:

jema wrote:

A big deep post could be done, but all posts decay....

Not going the modern route of only concrete and reinforcing steel below grade with hardware on top to affix a post to (and to affix a replacement part to should needs be)?

Concrete underground rots quite a bit slower than wood underground

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28118
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 20 11:51 am Post subject:

Slim wrote:

jema wrote:

A big deep post could be done, but all posts decay....

Did you see the question on concrete strength above?

I am going the modern way on the challenging posts. Which means one more normal one after posts are in the current holes.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6540
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 20 12:17 pm Post subject:

I may be missing your point, unless it's just the bit about concrete being best where retaining strength is needed (at least that's what I thought was being discussed. Perhaps you and dpack had already come to the conclusion that concrete would be better than a deep post?)

My point was more that posts don't rot as easily if they're not in the soil, so stick with a big post, just put it on top of concrete

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45521
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 20 12:30 pm Post subject:

doing it on piece at a time is not wise unless it is the hoover dam

for retaining walls, do the cuts, add loads of the right sort of rebar and mesh, make the shuttering, know the volume, have the right amount of well-chosen pour to fill the things in one go delivered with a concrete pump

the designs need to be correct, and they are all site specific
the construction of the shuttering needs to be accurate and strong
you need to use the correct mix for the job, it needs to be strong and stable in your local geology

pretty can be added to functional if you need to, as simple as decorating the shuttering boards or dyeing the mix or polishing the surface etc

imho doing it well is only a part diy job, even with a hurdy gurdy, mix, barrow and settle that much concrete in one pour is in a different league to steady digging and moderate load carpentry etc

it only needs doing once if it is done well which is a lot cheaper than needing remedial work in a few years

the last one i did was a bit more extreme(it had a 40ft tall stone gable end sitting above it and a couple of tiny streams running through the slippery clay layers)
20 yrs later it is still very stable
it was designed by a professor of structural architecture for a few hundred quid, i fixed the steel and made the shutters and we poured it with a pump in one go
there were a lot of materials in it, the footings and base and wall were very carefully designed for exactly those conditions, the shuttering was complex and heavy duty even compared to stuff i have done on big expensive sites

using the correct mix for the chemistry of the geology, sufficient strength, enough of the right metal in the right order(including wiring or welding it together)

a foundation possibly with piles, a slab and a wall growing up from near the uphill edge of the slab at an appropriate angle is the general pattern for such things
2 directions of slope gets a bit complicated

sorry to ramble a bit, tis a huge subject with quite a few specialisms involved

imho a few quid spent on getting a competent structural engineer to eyeball it and do some fag packet drawings or even full drawings including quantities and measurements etc would be money well spent at this stage
if i was standing in it and poking it with a bit of rebar i think my advice would probably stay the same.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45521
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Jul 26, 20 12:39 pm Post subject:
PS doing it right is a little more expensive than the alternatives but will value add far more than it costs, getting it wrong is expensive and a pita if you have an established garden sliding into a swamp in a concrete canoe PPS use the ballast and soft for post set, paths, brick laying etc, structural concrete needs structural materials

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28118
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 20 7:34 am Post subject:
making progress.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28118
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 20 6:11 pm Post subject:

Was just reading a reply on a forum saying they would not do a raised deck with 2x4 and neither would I, if I didn't have a lot of the stuff.
Though notably there will not be very much left after this bit is decked.
It highlights the point that big joists allow big spans and overhangs.
Makes me think, maybe the "big concrete hole" should stray a little more away from the slope, making it structurally less contentious and rely more on the next stage using really decent beams.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28118
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 20 4:12 pm Post subject:
Temping to deck the whole area.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45521
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 20 4:56 pm Post subject:
how much of a drop is there from the far edge of the dozen deck planks to the bottom of the slope by the big oak? how steep is it? how stable is the whole section? those ?s asked it would be rather a cute plan so long as it had a decent safety rail at the far edge

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45521
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 20 6:40 pm Post subject:
pilescan be a pita get it right do it once

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28118
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 20 8:30 pm Post subject:

Ouch!

No photos today as dad's taxi service was in operation. I screwed the deck down, but that's not exactly a photo op.
Key realisation is where there's concrete there needs to be bulk bags of ballast and deliveries are getting further and further down the drive due to other bulk bags.
Time to concentrate on using them up I think.
Drop is I reckon about 2.5m.
I still think stability is better than you would expect, but we can all agree the game needs to be upped at this point.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45521
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 20 7:44 am Post subject:

a concrete pump can deliver up several floors or along by 100m or so quite easily

bags and a mixer/barrow are ok for small stuff a few hundred kg at a go, if you start to get to quantities by cubic meters or tons and an awkward landscape for access a bulk delivery and a pump make sense

if you do decide full retaining walls are needed, getting the design and shuttering right is vital but pumping and vibro-poking will be quick, it needs to be as some mixes only have a short open time to give a decent result

2.5m is quite a drop and as it is the edge of a built-up platform it probably is as steep as it looks

the thing that worries me a bit is not the surface slipping down that slope but the entire thing slumping and disrupting everything on the top

the way that wall has broken its back indicates that has happened, but it may still be ongoing a little at a time as the "heap" shuffles itself to a more stable shape

a bucket moulded sandcastle in the rain will demonstrate what i mean quite quickly, piles of earth and rubble can take a bit longer to find their levels but unless held in place they will eventually

the house seems to be on what was the original natural edge but most of the garden was built up onto that edge (perhaps in the hope of an extra house or perhaps just to get rid of the spoil from foundation cuts, broken bricks, builders rubbish etc

at a professional guess it was dropped with a dumper truck and maybe shaped a bit with a machine (but not retained or properly compacted )and made of multiple layers of different things
i would expect it to slump for a considerable length of time, even if it did most of its slumping in the first few years, and may have stable periods, it has the capacity to move until it reaches a stable shape where friction is stronger than gravity

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45521
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 20 7:48 am Post subject:
you are looking well on the slave labourer regime but mix and barrow a wall that size would make the incredible hulk wince

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28118
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 20 8:03 am Post subject:
We have been here something like six years now and the wall was broken when we got here and if it has moved since, it has not been perceptible. My joints do take the point on the slave labour front I guess it does come down to whether I am doing a wholesale retaining wall or a few pier foundations.

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