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Milo

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Oop North-ish.

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 12:48 pm Post subject: Vegan Organic Farming
More good sense than, as yet, many folks can cope with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bp2-bsRaow

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 1:00 pm Post subject:
Welcome back. The idea looks very similar to permaculture, forest gardening and probably several other methodologies. Sounds very sensible to me although I'm not convinced by it being vegan, much reduced reliance on animals yes.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 1:21 pm Post subject:
Only managed the first minute here so far, due to the connection speed, but I don't get the parallels he is drawing between lack of diversity in intensive monocultures and livestock, as if one is responsible for the other.

Milo

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Oop North-ish.

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 1:52 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Only managed the first minute here so far, due to the connection speed, but I don't get the parallels he is drawing between lack of diversity in intensive monocultures and livestock, as if one is responsible for the other.

I'll be watching it again (and again!), but I do recall the gist of what you refer to. On (this and?), other forums I've had it e-thrown at me that removing livestock from farming leads automatically to (increased) mono-cropping, a suggestion or argument which seems to me to be much too firmly based in very not-new thinking. Certainly there is now vast mono-cropping in order to directly provide feed / fodder / food for meat and dairy-producing livestock.

We (pampered Westerners, etc.), have mostly come around to liking variety in our diets - why not assume that removal of livestock from land and human diet would lead to a significantly increased variety of crops, sensible cultivation of which is bound to avoid increased mono-cropping?

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 2:47 pm Post subject:

Milo wrote:

We (pampered Westerners, etc.), have mostly come around to liking variety in our diets - why not assume that removal of livestock from land and human diet would lead to a significantly increased variety of crops, sensible cultivation of which is bound to avoid increased mono-cropping?

But why assume you need to remove livestock entirely from the equation to achieve that? It is merely limiting the types of diversity, hence your diversity isn't as diverse as it could be.

Pasture is one of the most diverse and interesting food producing habitats and animals give us a whole variety of foods, materials and land management techniques that maybe, on the whole, aren't used to their full potential in the modern food system, but they could be. They are also a great way of storing and extending our diets into the winter months without oil.

SheepShed

Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 332
Location: In the middle of a Welsh forest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 3:00 pm Post subject:

Milo wrote:

why not assume that removal of livestock from land and human diet would lead to a significantly increased variety of crops, sensible cultivation of which is bound to avoid increased mono-cropping?

Surely that depends very much on the land in question. Upland sheep farming for instance, utilizes land that would be very hard pushed to produce any other type of crop at all.

Milo

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Oop North-ish.

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 4:16 pm Post subject:

SheepShed wrote:

Milo wrote:

why not assume that removal of livestock from land and human diet would lead to a significantly increased variety of crops, sensible cultivation of which is bound to avoid increased mono-cropping?

Upland sheep farming for instance, utilizes land that would be very hard pushed to produce any other type of crop at all.

Tim-berrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!! Indigenous species for building, for biomass, for leisure, for employment, for carbon sequestration.... For generally returning much more of our land closer to the way it was before (neolithic) farmers messed it up.

Do you know any upland sheep farmers who don't rely on subsidies? Perhaps you do know some, but I doubt it. But if you do, do these farmers give back the money they don't need? (Like most people, I don't like my taxes to support anything unnecessary).

And on a wider scale (and why not indeed?), this just in: https://bit.ly/99D5GV.

Last edited by Milo on Wed Nov 03, 10 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 4:38 pm Post subject:

We've had these sort of conversations before. Looks like next year I'll be starting off our forest garden project (for want of a better description). That'll not rely on any animals and the main aim will be to have as diverse a range of plants as possible. However, it'll not be vegan as there'll be loads of wild animals about fertilising the soil and I hope to eat a few pests such as snails and grey squirrels. Can't see any problem with that, can you? (Other than I don't really like snails...)

SheepShed

Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 332
Location: In the middle of a Welsh forest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 4:46 pm Post subject:

Milo wrote:

Tim-berrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!! Indigenous species for building, for biomass, for leisure, for employment, for carbon sequestration.... For generally returning much more of our land closer to the way it was before (neolithic) farmers messed it up.

Do you know any upland sheep farmers who don't rely on subsidies? Perhaps you do, but I doubt it. But if you do, do these farmers give back the money they don't need? (Like most people, I don't like my taxes to support anything unnecessary).

And on a wider scale (and why not indeed?), this just in: https://bit.ly/99D5GV.

Funnily enough, I'm in the midst of 15,000 hectares of forestry and don't rely (or receive) subsidies (I have a 'real' job as well as sheep).

The pasture land and boundaries of the few farms embedded in the forestry vastly increase the diversity of the overall environment.
Britain is never going to be returned to pre-Neolithic times, but we can make the best of what we've got.

Milo

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Oop North-ish.

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 4:58 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Reluctant to trawl over old fishing grounds, but it'd be silly for me to pretend my opinions and leanings are not uninfluenced by my thoughts and values as a vegan. To put it simply, I don't want to cause any harm to any animals or to any thing, but I'm not prepared to sit under trees until food falls at my feet. Having such an attitude indicates a degree of bias(!), but no more bias, rather, much less I'd suggest, than people who farm animals, or people who eat animals and dairy products because they (have come to think that), they like the taste of those foods and that liking the taste is reason enough to cause, or be directly involved in causing, environmental degradation on a massive scale. (And cruelty, of course. Some things I will discuss quite happily, but I will never agree that it could ever possibly be kind to unnecessarily and avoidably kill any animal. And if it's not kind - it isn't - and it's not neutral - it couldn't be - then it's unkind, so very unkind as to be cruel).

So, pasture. Not very diverse, is it. I've not looked up any definitions, but make a distinction between pasture and grazing land, and consider pasture to be fields of grass, a mono-crop situation if ever there was one.

jamanda
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 35056
Location: Devon

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 5:09 pm Post subject:
Not necessarily. Some pasture can be incredibly biodiverse. Literally hundreds of species - and grazing is what is needed to keep it that way. I wish I had the photos of the meadows I studied in the Cantabrian mountains when I was a student - more orchids than you could shake a stick at.

SheepShed

Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 332
Location: In the middle of a Welsh forest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 5:19 pm Post subject:

Milo wrote:

So, pasture. Not very diverse, is it. I've not looked up any definitions, but make a distinction between pasture and grazing land, and consider pasture to be fields of grass, a mono-crop situation if ever there was one.

I'd suggest that you revise your understanding of pasture then. It can be just fields of rye grass, but good pasture has a huge variety of plants and flowers within it and supports an equally large variety of animals, birds, insects, fungi etc. More so I'd suspect than the neat rows of organic veg in the polytunnels shown in the film.

The narrator seems to be comparing bad livestock rearing practice with good market gardening techniques, which is hardly a fair comparison. There's a bit at the end where he says about moving away from 'intensive farming' to 'livestock free', making the assumption that all livestock farming is inherently intensive and therefore bad, and all livestock free farming is inherently extensive and good. I'm sure you could do the opposite and show a large scale production of organic soya beans versus a small mixed livestock farm and claim the exact opposite.

He also seems to be taking credit for various things like having bees and wasps around (unlike livestock farms that presumably wrap themselves in a giant mesh to keep them away), using polytunnels to grow veg in (who'd have thought it), and the use of green manure (which was actually something borrowed from livestock farming techniques).

Last edited by SheepShed on Wed Nov 03, 10 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

Milo

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Oop North-ish.

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 5:20 pm Post subject:

SheepShed wrote:

[I] don't rely (or receive) subsidies (I have a 'real' job as well as sheep).

The pasture land and boundaries of the few farms embedded in the forestry vastly increase the diversity of the overall environment.
Britain is never going to be returned to pre-Neolithic times, but we can make the best of what we've got.

How many (hobby?), sheep do you have, I wonder. And your farming neighbours, full-timers in particular, do any of them receive no subsidies for farming?

Free speech 'n' all that, but I'd've been happier if you hadn't pointed out the glaringly obvious fact that *Britain is never going to be returned to pre-Neolithic times*, as if perhaps I'd thought we could, or should. The thing is, I'm not attacking you, I'm simply not at all in favour of the very little I know about your farming lifestyle.

Yes, making the best of what we've got is vital. Literally, I think. Allowing any sheep anywhere to eat my taxes, and every seedling tree and shrub they can reach, includes no new thinking and does nothing (I can think of), to improve the environment, still a big old place for sure.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 5:27 pm Post subject:

Milo wrote:

Yes, making the best of what we've got is vital. Literally, I think. Allowing any sheep anywhere to eat my taxes, and every seedling tree and shrub they can reach, includes no new thinking and does nothing (I can think of), to improve the environment, still a big old place for sure.

Funny you mention eating tree seedlings, I've got loads of deer that do that, I assume you don't object to me eating them? No tax payers money will be wasted, just my own.

Milo

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Oop North-ish.

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 10 5:39 pm Post subject:

Jamanda wrote:

Not necessarily. Some pasture can be incredibly biodiverse. Literally hundreds of species - and grazing is what is needed to keep it that way.

I wish I had the photos of the meadows I studied in the Cantabrian mountains when I was a student - more orchids than you could shake a stick at.

I've done that metre quadrat stuff too, but as you say, some pasture, (or would that be grazing land? I'm sure there's a distinction between the two), will include significantly diverse fauna and flora, but I doubt (don't know, but doubt), very much that it's anywhere near the biodiversity to be found in established indigenous woodland.

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