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Gove,coal and wood
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Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4260
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 19 7:57 am    Post subject: Gove,coal and wood  Reply with quote    

You`ve got to give him his due`s,he`s consistent in getting peoples backs up.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.news%2FAgNt_YciyQzOuFy9Rqib5Dg%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0b046PYGdpXnyMvShx-Wh4-XX4J_QE3hJw27Z10X32drb--ZwWspFzsVI&h=AT2o_g0V3AyWys8rzhEL64_FhmY0XqCqWDGIAG62E7jOi9mcacRNqx5VIv5N2sQg0eD93QBx_z_fwAY2GI8U9s7UxER96KUw60bolXGa-I6BLtfwE9U3hoUATUeMpyP6ibY4mUVJMYXW

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 26642
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 19 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

What is missing there and in other articles I have scanned, is any trace of numbers.
How does burning wood compare to diesel pollution or any other form of pollution?

Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15264
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 19 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

jema wrote:
What is missing there and in other articles I have scanned, is any trace of numbers.
How does burning wood compare to diesel pollution or any other form of pollution?


The Article wrote:
Wood-burning stoves give off SIX times as much cancer-causing pollution as diesel trucks and they could be making you ill

A fairly meaningless statement when you actually look at it though.
The video might be more informative, but is too loud here just now.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10892

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 19 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I have been looking into this in some detail, as it affects us and quite a lot of people we know. There was a survey issued last autumn asking for peoples opinions, and the gist of the survey was that the aim is to get rid of all 'high carbon' burning of fuel in the home (except gas).

In the interim, they want to ban house coal, restrict types of fire, register (at a cost of several hundred pounds) all wood sellers including corner shops who sell log sacks, producers etc., tell us what we can sell and insist that we keep it dry from forest to point of sale, and generally try to put small wood sellers out of business. Of course after that, the purchaser is quite at liberty to leave the wood out in the rain!

So far I have been unable to find the paper in which the figures that claim '36% of particulate pollution in London comes from burning wood'. I believe that someone from KIngs College London, who just happens to have recently published a book, has got the ear of Gove.

At present, wood, coal and farming are being demonised for producing particulates, and are now I believe being followed by scented candles and a few other things. I am afraid I wasn't able to get your link Ty, but think it is probably about that lot.

Sorry there is a lot, but I feel very strongly about this, especially as it is a load of rubbish. I do know that people suffer because of poor air quality, but am sure it is not just that. Asthma has increased dramatically in my lifetime. When I was a child I knew one child with it; now it seems it is quite common. Perhaps finding why would be part of the answer, and not demonising all particulates when each individual has their own trigger, often things like feathers or animal fur.

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4260
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 19 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Chris,that is what the jist of the link was stating,

This started last year when Gove came into his new job,we`ve had the who are about methane from cattle and there was mention of the increase in wood being burned in London.
Since the 1954 clean air act that made central London a smokeless zone,London has expanded,like other large towns and city`s across the UK,so these zones have extended outwards,that initially was outlawing bituminous coal use,
due to the 50`s smog that killed numerous people,i don`t believe wood was banned at the time,i could be wrong,but with the increase of wood burning in a built up area its clearly becoming a problem,but this new legislation Gove wants to bring in regarding new stoves in 2021? will only effect the new stoves,existing stoves are fine,it only effects the fuel they burn,its surprising how many burn bituminous coal in their multifuel stoves because its cheaper.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10892

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 19 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Sorry Ty, I couldn't get the link up. Strangely one of our coppice group members sent me a copy of the report yesterday, which contains most of the information I have been looking for.

Yes, it seems a lot of people are burning bituminous coal, but that is only part of it. Some people want to get rid of all particulate matter in the air, which of course is impossible, although I am aware that some people do have real problems with breathing, partly because of air quality.

I don't think that a lot of younger people, and probably some of my age who ought to know better, are even aware of the Clean Air Acts, and don't see why they shouldn't burn what they like. Informing people who live in towns would be a first step, followed by a certain amount of enforcement.

It is impossible to do more than bring in legislation on new stoves as many people are still using the open fire place installed in their houses, perhaps in the 19th century, and I even came across one a few years ago built with no throat, so possibly even early 17th century. To stop people using a fire at any time would be impossible, and many have turned to them because of the price of gas and electricity, as a secondary form of heating for various reasons, because man has a need for a fire occasionally as it is a built in need, or in case there is a power cut.

In the meantime, it might become rather difficult to buy logs for your fire if this legislation is enacted, as we are considering leaving firewood producing, and nobody just selling a few loads a year will be able to afford the certification. This either means very high costs or making very respectable people criminals again. Similarly the proposals are to limit the sale of bituminous coal, which is expected, even by the government, to put small coal merchants out of business.

Woo



Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 787
Location: Mayenne, Pays de Loire
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 19 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Burning wood in built up areas smacks of country house wannabees having a pretty wood burning stove to light at dinner parties...
maybe people are buying wood from the petrol station and lighting up long since extinct fireplaces to keep warm?
the images i saw on the news seemed to imply farmers who had wood burning fires in Cumbria were basically chocking Londons inner city kids?
it seems to me it is the latest in a long list of ballderdash...

we heat the whole house with wood fired central heating in the winter.
it is carbon neutral and local.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 44278
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 19 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

It is mostly trendies in London that have a wood fired stove for the "effect" that will be affected. I think the biggest issue (urban or rural) is particulates pollution which just can't be controlled very well in a domestic environment.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10892

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 19 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

This is mostly about particulates. I am now reading the government plans, which are chock full of poor science and appalling maths, as well as several major errors of fact, and the aim seems to be to meet WHO aspirations, and they are aspirations, about particulate matter. I have to check it, but one thing seems to be that with a combination of pollution from other countries and sea salt, even banning all wood burning and transport in London, they would never make it. Particulate matter has fallen dramatically over the last 20 year anyway, so it is mainly other things that are really causing the trouble, like too many vehicle on London roads.

As for 'trendies' burning wood; yes, in some cases, but a lot burn it to supplement other forms of heating, perhaps to keep one room warm enough to sit in, or keep the central heating off. We have both central heating and a closed fire, and it certainly keeps the house warm at night when the heating is off, makes that room more comfortable for sitting, and is also usable for cooking. We have always made a point of not being reliant on mains electricity if necessary, as we went through the rolling power cuts of the three day week, and know what going without heating and lighting is like. Luckily my parents were equally prepared, so Tilly light and heater came out.

Shan



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 8081
Location: South Wales
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 19 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

We have oil central heating (no mains gas) and honestly, it's too expensive to run. We use it to heat water and it runs for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening to ensure we don't have damp issues. Our main source of heating is the woodburner but because our house is a bit quirky, the woodburner is on the middle level, which means the kitchen and study are mostly bloody cold. 12 deg C in the kitchen is quite normal over Winter. Our bedroom which is on the top level is quite toasty overnight. We have to put the central heating on when we have guests as the guest bedroom has no insulation and doesn't benefit at all from the fire and there are no other logical spots to install further woodburners.... such fun.

gregotyn



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 1987
Location: Llanfyllin area
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 19 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Although I haven't got either of my wood burners going yet, I have no qualms about burning wood that I have grown from small plants and as it matures I will fell it and will re-plant. Sort of self sufficiency, and carbon neutral, apart from the chain saw fuel.

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5377
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 19 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Not everyone here is happy about the rules, but can you not regulate that new wood stoves and boilers be high efficiency and low particulate matter producing, the way the EPA has rules for over here?
(Or do you already have rules about that side of it?)

I'm considering a wood cookstove that meets EPA guidelines, and therefore has re-burn tubes in the top with a dedicated air-intake to combust (and toss up the flue) outdoor air.
Less than 2 g/hr of smoke

https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/choosing-right-wood-burning-stove

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4260
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 19 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Them regs are already here,this is regs on even cleaner stoves after 2021.

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5377
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 19 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

stoves or fuel?

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4260
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 19 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Stoves,there are what they call over here Defra stoves,they are the cleanest at present and they were the ones allowed in smokeless zones,the new regs will be on even cleaner stoves.

The only regs over here with fuel is in smokeless zones,where bituminous coal is banned,but to be honest,one has only to look on local websites to see logs being sold as seasoned to see photos of them still Green on the bark.

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