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... the sky is baby blue, and the just-unfurling leaves ...
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gz



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 6551
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 19 6:22 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    


I'm glad that is rare here

derbyshiredowser



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 824
Location: derbyshire
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 19 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Jam Lady wrote:
, but there is a clip online of a parked car picked up and flipped upside down, .


That would be the local kids round here

Jam Lady



Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2071
Location: New Jersey, USA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 19 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

It was something they call a landspout:

https://ktla.com/2019/07/06/tornado-briefly-touches-down-in-new-jersey-flips-car/

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10702

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 19 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I can't see that unfortunately, but must have been very frightening. Good thing it missed you. We get small ones not far from here fairly frequently, but rarely do much damage. There was one hit Selsey a few years ago in which the famous astronomer Patrick Moore was involved. Although he had damage to his house, he said he was glad to have been in the village at the time as he was interested in it as a natural phenomenon. Don't think most people saw it that way.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35279
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 19 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

ummm , flip a car nearby might make me open the windows and doors and hide under a mattress in the bathtub for a short while.

we get a few smallish twisters in the uk, lots really but most are quite small a few can trash a street.

we do get some pretty good waterspout ones.

i have seen 2 small and one huge waterspout and was overpassed by a very minor on land one, with that the most notable things were the wind that way, then a sudden drop in air pressure then wind 180 degrees the other
way. bit windy but it is often more windy in a winter gale where that happened.

im not thinking dust devils, ours can be ground to cloud base beasties but not like the things the usa gets down tornado alley which are super energetic

ps we do sometime have odd things falling from above , fish , frogs etc that are probably down to minor twisters on water

pps i was probably about a couple of miles from the big sea spout and that was far too close not to wonder which way it was going

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10702

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 19 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I agree. Having one flip a car is worrying. There have been a few damaging ones in the UK, and Selsey is a place they often come ashore from being water spouts. Something about the geography of the Solent I think.

Changing the subject a bit; we fired and delivered charcoal yesterday (not the same kiln full), and I made besoms and gathered some more sawdust. So quite a productive day.

gregotyn



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 1926
Location: Llanfyllin area
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 19 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I had my eyes opened when I went into the polytunnel of the diviner and sewer assistant! The broad beans really are about 12 feet high. He has no chemicals in there ever, but grows companion plants which he says keep various nasties at bay. Everything growing in there seemed really good. And the biochar pathway really was hard. We are going to see if it is possible to get a small, initially, business going with the products of my hedge trimmings. Eventually if it takes off hope to be able to show the results to potential buyers and sell them the results! I doubt if it will be a big job-but mighty oaks and all that from little acorns!
I have to hunt an electric fencer unit which works as the horses are coming onto the field where my excavations are taking place, so have to keep them off there at all costs. I don't want to find myself paying for horses with broken legs
I have also decided to finish working soon aim is to get this year out of the way and save money and go before it gets cold again next winter, but who knows what will happen?

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35279
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 19 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

wow, can you let us know what he does please?

if he is doing better than other folk in the same area/conditions knowing why is useful

big n tall plants can be down to the plant type but if he does far better with the same plant type etc etc .

i have added wood ash to mixture and composts but more for the pH than the charcoal fines. but it does go in and i rather like the product

spose there might be a double or even triple win win win

activated charcoal is awesome stuff even without rhodium, palladium or platinum at a few percent
re the last bit, rayney nickel is cheap as chips and often works better than the posh stuff, catching fire if dries out a bit when it has abraded your thermocouple pocket can be a mood spoiler until you start laughing in a very harsh safety shower ,the posh ones are far more polite unless you upset them in a far more sophisticated way

AC will have the tracers out of fuel, purify water, catch pollutants or incoming hazards, etc etc, i like activated charcoal with or without posh tweaks to make it do very clever stuff

i guess the stuff we are talking about re bio char has been hot for ages in a reducing atmosphere?

if so the black bits might have a huge surface area to mass ratio and loads of interesting properties, the pores have a world of their own and lots of uses have been found so for similar burnt goods

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10702

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 19 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Biochar is the fines from charcoal burning. The Carbon Compost Company https://www.carboncompost.co.uk/ sell both kilns and biochar. We got our kiln from them. They are engineering type people but believe in the real rather than some claimed uses of biochar, and say it helps. I am inclined to just shove a bit in the compost heap as and when, rather than being systematic about it. Imo, it will absorb water and organic nutrients and let them out slowly. I, and I don't think they, would claim anything else for it, but the pore size is what does it. I have seen it claimed that various chemical reactions can occur in the pores, and while I do not disbelieve it, I have no evidence for it either.

Activated carbon just clears the pores out a bit more so will be even more effective. In the best cases it is made by passing high pressure steam through fine charcoal, but in the worst case could have anything in it as a lot is imported from perhaps dubious sources.

Ash from charcoal burning if not done properly will contain potassium, so bonfire ash/charcoal will be ideal for the garden as long as it is kept dry from burning to use. Potassium is very soluble, so an advantage to have the charcoal there as it might catch some of it before the rain washes it away.

Sorry about the long post, but it is something I do know a bit about, being charcoal burners (wood colliers being the more picturesque name), having used activated charcoal, and understanding some of the chemistry I felt it might be helpful.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35279
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 19 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

umm , interesting.

i would think that there are times in a kiln or clamp when there is charcoal, heat, no oxygen and steam, is that right?

if so the dust or some of it could be a bit more than porous dust but claims need testing.

traditionally the fire ashes go in the earth closet or midden/compost heap and then on into the soil in a lot of places but i dont recall biochar fines being a product until they got mentioned here

re the chemistry thing a stunningly huge, nice, comfy surface to meet and react on makes for quite a drop in activation energies and reaction rates
if you can forgive the analogy bouncing around in a hotel room is better than bouncing about by a crowd

in soil there might be a biological thing as well, even "normal " pores would make a nice home for some organisms, do they house the microbes that do nitrogen fixing or whatever?

this concept might well have legs.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10702

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 19 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Biochar hasn't really been considered for very long. I think some soils in the Amazon where the people traditionally farm using cut and burn, then move on after a few years are what prompted the interest.

As far as reactions taking place, yes, it has certainly been suggested, but as far as I know, not proven. I see no reason why it wouldn't happen, but know of no proof, and other things are better catalysts than carbon. The rare earth metals are the more common catalysts. Again, there is no reason why nitrogen fixing bacteria shouldn't take up residence, but don't know if it has even been suggested.

The problem with biochar is that a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon saying it is a 'miracle' product that will do everything except make the tea, so this creates prejudice in more sensible people against it. I will only claim for it what I know is true, and that way, nobody will be upset.

As far as the midden went. everything went on that. The cinders from the fire probably didn't help, as coal ash contains all sorts of things I wouldn't really want to use on my veg. We use it on paths if it is icy as ours contains a bit of coal dust, and that at least gives a bit of grip. My father used to use it if he was building a concrete path; rammed down hard it gives a good firm base for the path when used as hardcore.

gregotyn



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 1926
Location: Llanfyllin area
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 19 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I know nothing except the brain washing the friend has given to me and what I have seen in his poly-tunnel. It appears that it works for him-with a 'but' as far as I am concerned. However, I was impressed with the plants, I only really went to see the broad beans which were truly 12 feet up in the air, though some had fallen over. He wasn't there when I went so I don't have a complete picture of the ins and outs, but will get more gen when I next see him-and he has time to chat and I will take notes, 'cos' my memory is shot. The tunnel is about 14 feet high and in the shape of 3 semicircles. I will find the length next time I see him. There is a local nursery who regularly change their tunnels, when the makers give him a good deal to do so, and they offer this friend first refusal on the old ones. His only fertilisers are, as I understand him, well rotted farm yard manure and biochar. I will get an 'how it all works' picture when I can. First I get a note book and write it all down to understand it, then ask the questions and then pass it on as 'info'-tremendous theory!!
Friend does say that it is 'chemical reactions' in the soil that make the boichar do what ever it does. His plants are really good is about all I know.

I have to give up working soon, my memory is going awol, and I set off with the job in hand and find myself forgetting what I am supposed to be doing, and going off at a tangent. I come out with the excuse that he will be like me when he is old, but I forgive him now well in advance!

Had my grass cut for hay yesterday when I got home from work, all 5 acres of it, by the friend who has most of it, for his wife's horses. Plan this year is to make them all collect the manure to a central point, and spread it around the end of April and try to get hay a bit sooner! There seems to be a good crop this time, plenty of leaf this time compared to last year, so should have a better feed quality. I am just praying for fine warm weather!

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4236
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 19 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I think here the term Midden is getting confused,a Midden is a Dung Heap or where the manure from stock sheds is stored.

Cinders from the fire would normally be riddled on an ashes heap,the riddlings would go back to start the next fire,the ashes when accumulated would go to re-surface the farm track,many would also dig them into their clay soil in the gardens to lighten the soil.

Since the reduction in coal burnt,Sulpher now has to be added to fertilisers.

Jam Lady



Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2071
Location: New Jersey, USA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 19 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Re charcoal and biochar - an interesting snippet from a recent Atlas Obscura piece about a recreated traditional Maori garden in New Zealand.

Writing about growing sweet potatoes it notes that: "Like in traditional Māori farms of the past, they’re the main feature of the garden, grown in regular mounds, or puke. To grow kūmara in cold, rainy New Zealand, Wiremu Puke, an ethnographic researcher from the Ngāti Wairere clan notes, the gardeners of yore mixed the soil with pumice and charcoal to keep them warm and encourage drainage. At one point, in the Waikato area, there were 2,000 hectares of this modified soil"

No comment about puke the planting mound / Puke the ethnographic researcher

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 10702

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 19 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I think it might depend where the midden was Ty. In some places I think it all went on together, but that would be more houses rather than farms. I agree with you about riddling the ashes though. It also depends on the quality of coal you are using. Poorer quality will contain more stuff that will not burn, so that would be more likely to end up as a path or on the midden, depending on how much land you had. Some ash was also used in bucket type toilets after use.

Gregotyn, a combination of animal manure and biochar is a good one and I would think responsible for your mans success. I don't have easy access to animal manure; the best I can do is from my wormery, and as that is such a chore, it only tends to get sorted about once a year. and a bit late to use as anything except top dressing usually. I sometimes add a bit of biochar to the compost heap if I remember.

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