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buzzy



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 3575
Location: In a small wood on the edge of the Huntingdonshire Wolds
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 20 11:47 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Peats were carried home from the moss in creels, as I understand, but when did creels begin? Stringy stuff would not work with peats, I think.

Henry

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 36047
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 20 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

string , nets and baskets are very old technology.

as they exist in australia it seems likely at least 60000 yrs and probably twice that if the tech was first footer.

none are very well represented in the archaeology/paleontology.
compost, kindling, etc but a few bits show up now and again.

eurostring at 90000 yrs

twisting plant fibres is just fiddling with something until you wrap it round a few dry sticks for tomorrow's fire or knit a string bag to carry your picnic and catch critters which is technology

imho the use of cordage is probably almost as old as the use of shaped stone tools, ie pre modern human.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 36047
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 20 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

by creels i am thinking rope n coil formed baskets of reed, straw or made of small bendy timber either round or split, is that right?

if so at least back to the neolithic, probably as far back as recent hominids and the need for storage/transport/stopping baby crawling into the fire/ keeping the puppies out of the kitchen ,same as now.

baskets, hurdles etc are well useful but unless they get a very rare preservation by some chance circumstances they leave little traces.

oetzi had some neat plant fibre stuff among his kit but at the same time folk were making fine textiles further east. that is quite recent.

my instinct is string and basket/hurdle/bender tech was adopted about the same time as shaped stones that you keep for later, ie early hominid
if you have a swiss army knife you need a pocket or lanyard:lol:

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 36047
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 20 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dodgy reconstruction , that family need some string or at the least some woven sticks to hold those frames together and the ridge should be lower
or at a minimum the tops of the ribs need side branches to grab the ridge pole

modern human preteens can do better than the illustration, so could anyone making a shelter half a million years ago as that is personal jenga and an uncomfy time.

the base is fine and made the record, rocks n post holes, the top rotted away along with any cordage they used.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 11250

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 20 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Creels are made of woven wicker these days, but could be any material available. I make baskets out of thin strips split from hazel, but any very thing straight stick will do, with willow being particularly good and found in damp places. I have never been anywhere where peat is cut, but would think willow grows well there, hence the creels.

I am sure it didn't take man in whatever form to realise that twisting fibres together made them a lot stronger. Keeping them together might have taken longer, as plying two or more lengths together would have been necessary. Of course if you let go of a length of tightly twisted string it doubles up, and is even stronger, so may have given them the idea. Plying has to be done in the opposite direction to the spin to get good strength.

There are plenty of other ways to get cordage for lashing things like huts together such as withies, bramble and honeysuckle or clematis in the UK, and presumably similar creepers in other parts of the world. There is also the possibility of making 'benders' with smaller diameter rods. The thin ends can by twisted or woven together to make the roof.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 36047
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 20 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

some plants are ready made cordage, some need basic processing, some need a complex process

something like rope from inner bark has several stages including being able to boil it in a pot of lye, ie you need a pot or at least a fire, tongs ,hot rocks and a bucket of some sort as well working out that might make it flexible, stronger and rot resistant

gregotyn



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 2084
Location: Llanfyllin area
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 20 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Feed bags are paper sacks which had animal feed in and are available from a farmer friend, MR, usually about 3-4 ply. They don't 'sweat' like plastic fertiliser sacks do if the wood inside is a bit damp. I am still using a paper sack-3ply- from when my dog was put down about 10 years ago! Bit rough round the edges now! I wouldn't use hessian unless I had a frame to put it in to hold it open. Cut the blanks into feed bags and chop into boxes and I sort them as I go to be all straight and aligned so that I can pick them out of the box and straight into the selling net. I also have a few customers for the "not making the grade for the shop", and also for the sweepings off the floor and chippings-2" down, which I give away to the librarians as I get tea and cake on Saturday morning!
I used to bag them in small amounts into plastic bags from a supermarket veg section-so easy a plastic bag placed over a circle of metal, 4 inches deep, turn over, put the sticks into the circle of steel with bag on the outside-remove the circle and the sticks are in the bag-50p here I come! I now only use big nets and a plastic homemade chute easy! I chop pallet wood as it is usually kiln dried and easy to chop. Sawing by hand is not worthwhile it needs a big saw Dewalt or other cross cut I am about to buy another as my old one has been on the job over 25 years and needs to retire.
I agree the plastic bag is not the best option but it does mean 2 trips to offset it's polluting nature.

Norwegians use much longer logs than we do. There is a lovely book about their method of wood cutting. The summer is geared to cutting and seasoning timber for winter. It is written as a story but it is how they do it. I can't remember it's title, but I want to give it another read.
My time is nearly up so got to go. Hope you are all well!

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 36047
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 20 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

a lot of folk have stoves rather than firedogs and hooks, i spose that does make for wanting short lengths that are not too fat for the door

packed as a cord might be a bit unstable for lump wood

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 11250

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 20 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I think most people on the continent have larger stoves than we do Dpack. Here, most are designed to heat only the room they are in, rather than heating the whole house, either by keeping the door open or some sort of back boiler for central heating.

Our charcoal bags are 2 ply paper, and they are pretty strong, but don't have to carry the weight that feed bags do, so I can see why they need to be 3 or 4 ply.

I think the book you are thinking about may be 'Norwegian Wood' Gregotyn. I have it, and did read it, but it is more a story than anything. I can only assume, if it is the one you are thinking of, that it is not the woodsmen Norwegians who make all those pretty log piles; the woodsmen have a lot more to do than arrange log piles in patterns. Ours tends to be in a pallet box in the log store, moved to a heap outside the front door, brought into the house and thrown into the log basket that will hold about a weeks worth of wood. Not pretty, but functional.

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4297
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 20 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I`m surprised you still get paper feed bags other than Horse feed bags,they have all gone plastic in this area.

What type of feed and company are these?

gregotyn



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 2084
Location: Llanfyllin area
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 20 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I think you are right MR. ref. the wood book's title. It was a good read at the time, I will get it again sometime. You are right that it is not foresters who make the pretty log piles, MR, it is the folks who just need heat in the winter. Foresters are there for the money from the timber. The company I worked for bought a lot of Swedish and Norwegian cut timbers. We made fencing panels by the thousand and had shiploads at a time. We had a place on the docks in Hull and called it off as we needed it. All cut to38mm by 16mm! I used to run a saw mill at that place for just cutting 3x3in. posts to the sizes specified at the start of the week, and collected by the parent company.

I had planned to go home and chop wood today, but too dark now-2.15-to see my fingers. I may have to install a light-damn the expense! I am running out of good dry timber I have an outside store but the roof doesn't have any spare at each end, so a good drying shed but not when it is wet and the wind blows the water in! I am hoping for a good dry weekend.

The bags were dog feed ones from Wynnstay Farmer's, a local agric. merchant. I am on the last one now, and the dog has been gone about 15 years. I will try to remember to look whose make the feed was.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 11250

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 20 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

We have a small saw mill, and run it occasionally when we have some good saw logs. I would like to develop that side of the business, but seasoning the timber is a problem as we don't really have anywhere suitable, and we have to be careful not to have too many things in the wood, even if they are temporary and 'tents' rather than buildings.

We are hoping for better weather too. I think the worst of it has gone through now, but had to give up again yesterday after lunch. The strong winds didn't come in, but it rained hard again. Everywhere is soaking, so a few weeks of dry weather would do a lot of good.

gregotyn



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 2084
Location: Llanfyllin area
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 20 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The dog food had the title "Winner Gold"!

I hope you get the dry weather you need MR.

The size of the UK wood burners is much less generally that those of the Scandinavians. My large wood burner is about 16 inches wide, and is the one that heats the water when connected-the water is another story. I went away for Christmas and forgot to turn it off and drain the pipes! I met the water coming down through the kitchen ceiling light and out through the front door from the bathroom above. Now you can tell how bad I am-I made the same mistake the next year! (This says take no notice of what I say-or do!), but an experience I have not repeated since, the water is off! I don't do heat either, except hot water bottles. These, I don't know how, seem to remain hot all night, from about 7pm to 4 am when I get up for work. At that time of the morning I am on auto pilot and get up and gather all the kit I have put ready the night before and away to work by 5-6am. I don't notice if it is cold or not. What I don't understand is how, having lived with people who liked hot houses, I cope with no heat. When I was in the state of married bliss I used to get up about 5 am, because the heating was only off for June, July and August. I would go to my veg plot and do early morning gardening before going to work. I had a wonderful quarter acre veg. plot and used to sell a lot at the saw mill.
Now I work, chop wood and sell it, but as soon as I retire the veg plot will come back into play, I'll have the time!

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 11250

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 20 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I am not sure what size our wood burner is, but we get all the reject wood that is too long for other people, or is too knotty to split. The really impossible stuff goes in the charcoal kiln, so we have a use for all of it. We do have heating, although I often find other places far too hot, so try to remember to wear several layers when we go out so I can shed one or two.

It will be nice to get your veg patch going again Gregotyn. You may be able to sell the veggies with the kindling.

gregotyn



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 2084
Location: Llanfyllin area
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 20 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Plan b is selling veg MR. It is something I did years ago when I was married, we had a big veg./fruit garden and my workforce used to buy off me. The kindling is good, a lot of work, but I enjoy chopping wood. Selling veg. straight out of the plot would be good too. I have the ground, the tractor to plough it and a cultivator, what else do I need-well a stronger back to start would be good! The plus is on retirement I can do it in my own time and rate. All I do now is at my rate, but not enough of it! I will loose the wood I get from work. All is not lost as a local lad and his friend are doing mass kindling on a machine and from what I see they do a good job but it is in bigger nets than mine so my cut will be to re-net his into my nets. I will order for the year in the late spring for delivery asap. Save me hours of cutting pallets up and the money should be the same, with any excess finance coming from my smaller nets-all good theory, I need to check the practical!

Seasoning timber can be easy, but needs to be done in secure premises. I went to learn about milling and pressure treating in some place 40 miles from London, a long time ago now. That mill was something else. A floor level carriage brought the huge tree trunks into the building any thing up to 40 feet long, and progressed through the band saw and really good beech trees were eventually reduced via more band saws to..wait for it.. paint brush handles! I really could not believe that hardwood was used for something, which in many cases, is thrown after use. there were about 20 smaller band saws doing the secondary operations. So to get to the point they "sticked" the saw planks sawn on the band rack and then kiln dried them using their own offcuts

Very cold this morning. I needed to get wood to the shop so to get it I needed to undo the padlock on the shed, and needed a blow lamp to thaw the lock out-now where do you keep the blow lamp-clue with my tools-and the tools are....in the shed. So I have 2 blow lamps, one is now available for hire! (The new blow lamp is not in the shed, nor will be). Got it all done so I have delivered kindling on my way here and will be returning to cut and chop for next week and more if possible. In some ways the cold weather is a useful as most people put the heating on when it is this cold, so reduced kindling sales. Idiots like me add a layer and get on with it!

Have you heard from Cassandra lately, I hope all is going well for her. Back to home to pick up the brummack and get going again.

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