Replacement Windows - which would be best for us?

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Replacement Windows - which would be best for us?
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Downsizer Forum Index -> Energy Efficiency and Construction/Major Projects

What sort of windows would be best

Soft wood

12%

[ 2 ]

Hard wood

62%

[ 10 ]

uPVC

25%

[ 4 ]

Other (please suggest an alternative)

[ 0 ]

Total Votes : 16

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Midland Spinner

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 2931
Location: Under a green roof

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 8:38 am Post subject: Replacement Windows - which would be best for us?

Advice needed please!

We need to replace the windows at the front of the house. The existing ones are of two types:
uPVC upstairs, these were in place when we bought the house 17 years ago and still work, although they are getting very long in the tooth, let in fearful draughts, and the opening parts aren't where we want them. The ones we have at the moment are just big sheets of glass with no glazing bars and make the house look rather blank.

Softwood downstairs, these were installed about 15 years ago and are now almost completely rotten. They have openings where we want them, but have so many locks that they are a fiddle to open, so we mostly don't bother. These have glazing bars and look much better than the big panes upstairs.

Our house faces the prevailing winds and the sun and is almost completely exposed to the elements. The windows get the full force of any weather that's around.

We lead a fairly busy life and can't always tie up time to paint windows with good (but not excessively sunny and therefore un-paintable) weather, so painting the windows is (realistically) always going to be behind schedule.

On the environmental side we are trying to weigh up the relative merits of the three main options:

Softwood - Fairly cheap. Can be sustainably grown. But needs painting at least every other year so lots of VOCs, paint etc. Lots of scaffolding / ladders (don't much like heights!) Painting is difficult to schedule in. Will probably last about 12-15 years if we are lucky.

Hardwood - probably not sustainably grown? A lot more expensive. Will need painting about every 3-5 years (see above about VOCs & ladders). Should last longer.

uPVC - Cheapest? Won't need painting (so once it's installed that's it bar cleaning). But it's Plastic. Quite a lot of embodied energy in manufacture. But won't need painting. Should last quite a long time.

Builders: We are also trying to decide whether to use a local builder (expensive, possibly busy and won't be able to fit us in) or a national window firm (cheaper, but the fitters won't be builders and we need at least one lintel replacing as well, and national double glazing firms have their own special set of problems - ceasing to trade, high pressure salesmen, etc. etc.)

What do you all think? We have a bit of money to do this, but not loads. Ideally we'd like to sort the job once & for all. Our house is old, but not in a conservation area or listed or anything.

I've made this a poll as I'd like some quantifiable input.

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 8:58 am Post subject:
We have hard wood windows and we only give them a coat of oil when we remember (twice in 15 years I think). Still in great shape. uPVC can look grubby and sad after a few years but you can't, aside from washing, do much about it. You can't paint uPVC. The average installed life of a uPVC window is around 18 years, not because it's failed, but often because people are tired of their drab looks.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 9:03 am Post subject:
I'd go for good quality hard wood and a maintenance habit or aluminium/wood composite. Neither are cheap. Both will last.

ros

Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 2469
Location: Beds

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 9:38 am Post subject:
I saw these guys somewhere https://www.westgatejoinery.co.uk/Energy-Rated-Windows.htm but assume they are hugely expensive (they are in my bookmark folder called " for when Ernie pays up" )

Gervase

Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 8655

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 9:45 am Post subject:

A good quality softwood is fine - but you have to ensure that it's good, and ready-made windows like Magnet are made of dire stuff. Specify Douglas fir with maybe hardwood sills and you'll be fine. There are plenty of softwood windows that are still going strong after 200 years, which is more than can be said for any plastic. Timber does need some basic care - use oil if you want to keep the look of the wood, or an oil-based paint (linseed oil paints like these are the best) and make sure they get treated every five years and they'll outlast your grandchildren.
Are you looking for sashes or casements? You can keen the narrow glazing bars which are a feature of sash windows with narrow-spaced DG units like these.

ian1

Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 314
Location: essex

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 10:17 am Post subject:
if you go for soft wood try to get some that don't come pre primed, its next to useless and used i think only to hide defects in the wood. i would seriously look at the paint gervase linked to or in my opinion oil based dulux weathersheild for a mass produced paint. oh and you can get paint for upvc, have done for a few years now, people seem really surprised how discoloured it can get.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 11:47 am Post subject:

If you get a good quality modern uPVC double glazed window, with a good insulation rating, you're getting a fine product. The mistake people often make is that they go to a big double glazing company and buy the cheapest c**p they can.

If the character of your home is suitable for such windows, its what I'd go for.

Edit: and while the embedded energy in double glazing can be high, in a quality product the lifespan should be very long and the energy savings you get through using them can be tremendous.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 11:58 am Post subject:

Gervase wrote:

There are plenty of softwood windows that are still going strong after 200 years, which is more than can be said for any plastic.

While this is true, the comparison is a little harsh. The older grades of plastic used in windows weren't sufficiently resistant to UV light to last forever, but the newer formulations for uPVC should last a very long time indeed, as they're way tougher to UV.

There are several reasons why you'll not find examples of man-made plastics 200 years old, though...

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45470
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 12:06 pm Post subject:

i restored 14 very large pitch pine sash windows made in 1743,apart from being choked with paint they were perfect, some of the glass was replaced due to the blitz but some was original

wood and paint work very well

im a bit wary of al/upvc, it has a 20yr or so lifespan with next to no maintanance but there can be movement issues and sealed unit issues as well as it being very ugly

well constructed cold grown sustainable wood gives very good value long term imho

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45470
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 12:06 pm Post subject:

cab wrote:

Gervase wrote:

There are plenty of softwood windows that are still going strong after 200 years, which is more than can be said for any plastic.

caesin buttons ?sorry

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 3:00 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

caesin buttons ?sorry

Smart @7$e

Yes, I guess they'd fit the definition of man made plastic.

Gervase

Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 8655

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 5:28 pm Post subject:
Let's see. Apart from the fact that they look hideous, another disadvantage of uPVC windows is that they're made from hydrocarbons and currently can't be recycled. They can't be repaired if they break. They're less secure than timber (a small cordless angle-grinder can get through a uPVC window or door in seconds). Apart from that, though, they're great...

Midland Spinner

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 2931
Location: Under a green roof

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 5:37 pm Post subject:

Gervase wrote:

Are you looking for sashes or casements? You can keen the narrow glazing bars which are a feature of sash windows with narrow-spaced DG units like these.

We need Casements, the windows in our house are wide & low - as are many in this area. (I expect that originally they might have been Yorkshire sashes - i.e. sideways sliding, but OTOH, this building was never originally a house, apparently it was a cattle shed until about 60 years ago.) The window openings aren't any sort of standard size (which will affect the price I expect!) Ideally we'd have a casement at either end & a top light in the middle in the bedroom, that way we can always have a window open whatever direction the wind is in - or several on very hot nights.

I'm not so fussed for the bathroom, but it'd probably be nice to have them matching & the same for downstairs.

Obviously the more openings we have the more expensive the windows will be, but we've lived for ages with only one casement in the upstairs windows and cooked in Summer and had them blowing around in gales in the winter... So while we are going to the expense of replacing the windows we figured that we'd get the openings we want (assuming we can afford it - Ernie!

Hint)

Quote:

Timber does need some basic care

I know, that's why we are looking at the options; we have to be realistic - last Summer there literally weren't any days that we could have painted the windows - you need a 12-18 hour stretch of good weather during which the window can be open for the paint to dry. We were so busy that we didn't have very many days at home, and the days that we did have were wet, or were part days where we had to go out & couldn't leave the windows open. OH & I rarely had a day off together, so it wasn't even as if one of us could have stayed in and kept the burgulars out.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9715
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 7:05 pm Post subject:
its a difficult choice. we put in softwood, douglas fir, and so far so good., but its only a couple of years old. we choose it because both hardwood and upvc are so eco horrendous

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 10 7:59 pm Post subject:

Gervase wrote:

Let's see. Apart from the fact that they look hideous, another disadvantage of uPVC windows is that they're made from hydrocarbons and currently can't be recycled. They can't be repaired if they break. They're less secure than timber (a small cordless angle-grinder can get through a uPVC window or door in seconds).
Apart from that, though, they're great...

Looks depend on the property; on a lot of more modern buildings they're fine. uPVC is now recycled, and repairing may be as simple as replacing a part of the frame or the whole frame; harder to just 'fill' them though. And as for security, really it depends on what you're buying. The laminate framed models are pretty secure, you'd take a long time to get through with your angle grinder! But the cheaper ones, you don't need an angle grinder, you can unpick the beading around the glazing units in minutes.

You need to take great care in purchasing PVC windows. But that doesn't mean they're a bad choice.

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