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Suggestion for new "Naughty Corner"
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paul1963



Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 2161
Location: No longer active on the forum
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:16 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Jo S wrote:
darkbrowneggs wrote:
Sorry (and I am still hesitant to post on this thread, even though I started it myself)

I wasn't suggesting an unmoderated section, and I wasn't suggesting a section where the truths or untruths of people's beliefs could be discussed and thrashed out to everyone's satisfaction

What I was vaguely suggesting was an "Alternatives Corner" which you could opt into if you held views other than the scientific mainstream, and that those who felt otherwise (it seems twaddle was and unfortunate choice of word in my first post, but again mad unknowingly) .

ie one might believe in God and the power of prayer , one might believe in alternative therapies of all kinds, and maybe even had positive results with them oneself, and possibly wish to post to that effect, without getting into a scientific debate as to why your own personal "cure" had no standing as it had not been verified.

Things like Bio dynamic growing, planting by moon phases, dowsing, reiki, curing meat at moon phases, herbalism, homoeopathy, chiropractors, Bach's Rescue Remedy, magnetic egg sexers, - far to many things to mention.

I would not be interested in discussing whether or not these have been scientifically proven to work, but I would be interested to hear anyone's personal experiences - negative or positive, then armed with this information I could then go on and make a more informed decision as to how I intended to go on through my life.

I don't have to do what someone else has done, its just interesting to know what they did and how it worked out for them in their circumstances at that particular time.

I personally, think there are many things in this world that we cannot begin (at present) to understand, but that does not (in my opinion only I hasten to add mean that they don't exist

I think , unfortunately, and unknowingly, I happened to make my initial suggestion at a rather fraught time. I must admit I tend not to read posts which look as though they might be contentious - I dislike arguments of any kind - so hadn't realized anything might be amiss on the forum in general.

Most of the forums I am a part of I have joined simply to gain knowledge from the personal experience of others, and hope to learn something from their mistakes and triumphs, and also pass on anything I might have gleaned through my own passage through this lifetime.

One of my favorite poems is
The things that matter by E Nesbit 1858-1924 and I like to think there is a little bit about me in there somewhere.

All the best
Sue

this was edited as there were several more posts while I was typing, and I had included something which might have been seen as contentious - which is the LAST thing I was trying to be. Sue


I'll be honest: that's the point an online forum. To discuss one or a million topics of interest. But unlike your local pub or even a community meeting, there are millions of voices on the wibbly web, all with their own opinions and (for some) the belief that the anonymity of the web means that they can say what they like without the consequences, unlike in real life.

Rather than what you're saying, I think that as a "community" we should do better at picking up our own rubbish, rather than expecting the litter pickers to do it for us. In other words, moderate ourselves rather than backing away because someone is being particularly vocal or facetious.


I agree, but not everyone may have the confidence to tell people they are offending. When I first came to the site I got a few digs for my first thread and I bit back, because that is what I do, but a different personality may easily have left to not return. We have seen a different example of that not so long ago where a new member retorted to criticism of their first post by getting aggressive and demanding to leave. Maybe they just didn't know the etiquette, I certainly didn't and probably still don't TBH

Incidentally if I am being contentious I put a smiley in to illustrate good intention rather than rancour (unless i'm really cross when I use the revolvong red fella)

Jo S



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 5174
Location: Somerset
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I suspect that bagpuss is saying that challenging religion and faith is one thing, but challenging a person for their faith is a different matter entirely.

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 26748
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

My position is simple.

I honestly do try and keep my mouth shut when these subjects come up on open forum, but open is open and if someone is making a contention that up is down, black is white or that a couple of twigs can detect water, then my opinion is as valid as anyone else's and I will be tempted to challenge such things.

If we have a "belief" area of some description where there is a basic premise that if you are posting in a thread you basically share that "belief" then it is a clear line in the sand that people should not cross.

Jo S



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 5174
Location: Somerset
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

paul1963 wrote:
Jo S wrote:
I'll be honest: that's the point an online forum. To discuss one or a million topics of interest. But unlike your local pub or even a community meeting, there are millions of voices on the wibbly web, all with their own opinions and (for some) the belief that the anonymity of the web means that they can say what they like without the consequences, unlike in real life.

Rather than what you're saying, I think that as a "community" we should do better at picking up our own rubbish, rather than expecting the litter pickers to do it for us. In other words, moderate ourselves rather than backing away because someone is being particularly vocal or facetious.


I agree, but not everyone may have the confidence to tell people they are offending. When I first came to the site I got a few digs for my first thread and I bit back, because that is what I do, but a different personality may easily have left to not return. We have seen a different example of that not so long ago where a new member retorted to criticism of their first post by getting aggressive and demanding to leave. Maybe they just didn't know the etiquette, I certainly didn't and probably still don't TBH

Incidentally if I am being contentious I put a smiley in to illustrate good intention rather than rancour (unless i'm really cross when I use the revolvong red fella)


IMHO, confidence comes from seeing others do the same...

paul1963



Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 2161
Location: No longer active on the forum
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Jo S wrote:
paul1963 wrote:
Jo S wrote:
I'll be honest: that's the point an online forum. To discuss one or a million topics of interest. But unlike your local pub or even a community meeting, there are millions of voices on the wibbly web, all with their own opinions and (for some) the belief that the anonymity of the web means that they can say what they like without the consequences, unlike in real life.

Rather than what you're saying, I think that as a "community" we should do better at picking up our own rubbish, rather than expecting the litter pickers to do it for us. In other words, moderate ourselves rather than backing away because someone is being particularly vocal or facetious.


I agree, but not everyone may have the confidence to tell people they are offending. When I first came to the site I got a few digs for my first thread and I bit back, because that is what I do, but a different personality may easily have left to not return. We have seen a different example of that not so long ago where a new member retorted to criticism of their first post by getting aggressive and demanding to leave. Maybe they just didn't know the etiquette, I certainly didn't and probably still don't TBH

Incidentally if I am being contentious I put a smiley in to illustrate good intention rather than rancour (unless i'm really cross when I use the revolvong red fella)


IMHO, confidence comes from seeing others do the same...


True enough but you would have to be here long enough to see that surely. If you make a post and a dozen people brand you as a twaddlemonger you may not wish to hang around for a few more objective people to interject or to log on. Also the sensible ones may leave the thread feeling it is deteriorating. It's a lottery some days you log on and get sensible people another day you get stuck with me

Bebo



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12576
Location: East Sussex
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Jo S wrote:
I suspect that bagpuss is saying that challenging religion and faith is one thing, but challenging a person for their faith is a different matter entirely.


Why? Religion has as little scientific proof behind it as the tooth fairy or homeopathy.

paul1963



Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 2161
Location: No longer active on the forum
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Bebo wrote:
Jo S wrote:
I suspect that bagpuss is saying that challenging religion and faith is one thing, but challenging a person for their faith is a different matter entirely.


Why? Religion has as little scientific proof behind it as the tooth fairy or homeopathy.


Yep, it's a matter of faith, and that is the point surely. Challenging a faith can be as offensive to someone with that faith as challenging their belief in it

Penny Outskirts



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 23385
Location: Planet, not on the....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

paul1963 wrote:
Bebo wrote:
Jo S wrote:
I suspect that bagpuss is saying that challenging religion and faith is one thing, but challenging a person for their faith is a different matter entirely.


Why? Religion has as little scientific proof behind it as the tooth fairy or homeopathy.


Yep, it's a matter of faith, and that is the point surely. Challenging a faith can be as offensive to someone with that faith as challenging their belief in it


But made up nonsense still must be challenged.

naomij



Joined: 03 Mar 2011
Posts: 379
Location: Kent coast
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

obv I am totally new so don't have a good sense of the 'tone' here, but in general online, as in the pub etc, I don't constantly feel the need to express my opinion on the validity of what everyone else says.
There is a big difference between a thread called 'what do you think of biodynamic farming practices' where it would IMO be perfectly justifiable to offer criticism, and a thread entitled 'my wonderful experience of biodynamic farming practices' where IMO a polite reply would not be more negative than 'I can't say I see any reason to farm this way but it was an interesting read thanks for sharing'.
But then if I wanted to discuss biodynamic farming or vaccination etc, there may well be better places than here (which is perhaps a shame, as I imagine there is at least some crossover between downsizer type folk (whoever they are) and non-vaccers, hippy farmers etc?)
I struggle to see the need for sarcy offhand remarks....sometiems they are funny and harmless, but mostly they are negative and offputting. But thats just me

Jo S



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 5174
Location: Somerset
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Challenge the faith, by all means. Why not?

But sometimes it gets personal, it stops being about the faith or religious leaders and becomes about the person holding that faith.

In my mind, that's wrong.

Midland Spinner



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 2931
Location: Under a green roof
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

naomij wrote:
obv I am totally new so don't have a good sense of the 'tone' here, but in general online, as in the pub etc, I don't constantly feel the need to express my opinion on the validity of what everyone else says.
There is a big difference between a thread called 'what do you think of biodynamic farming practices' where it would IMO be perfectly justifiable to offer criticism, and a thread entitled 'my wonderful experience of biodynamic farming practices' where IMO a polite reply would not be more negative than 'I can't say I see any reason to farm this way but it was an interesting read thanks for sharing'.
But then if I wanted to discuss biodynamic farming or vaccination etc, there may well be better places than here (which is perhaps a shame, as I imagine there is at least some crossover between downsizer type folk (whoever they are) and non-vaccers, hippy farmers etc?)
I struggle to see the need for sarcy offhand remarks....sometiems they are funny and harmless, but mostly they are negative and offputting. But thats just me


Well put.

12Bore



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 9088
Location: Paddling in the Mersey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Jo S wrote:
Challenge the faith, by all means. Why not?

But sometimes it gets personal, it stops being about the faith or religious leaders and becomes about the person holding that faith.

In my mind, that's wrong.

Good post, a person "with faith" will normally accept a challenge, and may often find that responding to it may reinforce/reaffirm their faith, personal, on the other hand, is wrong and often turns personal/nasty.

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

paul1963 wrote:

Yep, it's a matter of faith, and that is the point surely. Challenging a faith can be as offensive to someone with that faith as challenging their belief in it


Its possible for people to find things offensive when they're not; to be offended by a statement that directly or indirectly challenges a belief, if the statement is made reasonably, is a good example.

Downsizer doesn't have the best track record on being even handed towards all faith based positions. Its better than a lot of sites, but IMHO has further to go. A corner of the site where even handed challenges to opinions cannot be made would be entirely regressive if our goal is to get where we need to be on both tolerance and reason.

Bebo



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12576
Location: East Sussex
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I'm probably one of the more vocal anti-religion posters. If people choose to believe that god exists that's their choice, doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. However, organised religion and those that pedal it (and by that I mean those in charge of religious organisations) are in my opinion a bad thing and I'm going to continue saying that on here up until I'm banned for it.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 36631
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

if someone suggested thor causes lightning and thunder i will mention moving particles ,electrons ,photons , discharge paths and shock waves in air and demonstrate them if required ,i ask the same burden of proof from thorists tis only polite to be able to explain ones world view in a logical way be it planting beans or how to be ethical and sustainable

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