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12Bore



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 9088
Location: Paddling in the Mersey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:41 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Bebo wrote:
I'm probably one of the more vocal anti-religion posters. If people choose to believe that god exists that's their choice, doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. However, organised religion and those that pedal it (and by that I mean those in charge of religious organisations) are in my opinion a bad thing and I'm going to continue saying that on here up until I'm banned for it.

So long as you do not launch personal attacks on other posters (which you do not) fair enough. Every opinion is valid, even when one disagrees with it.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Midland Spinner wrote:
naomij wrote:
obv I am totally new so don't have a good sense of the 'tone' here, but in general online, as in the pub etc, I don't constantly feel the need to express my opinion on the validity of what everyone else says.
There is a big difference between a thread called 'what do you think of biodynamic farming practices' where it would IMO be perfectly justifiable to offer criticism, and a thread entitled 'my wonderful experience of biodynamic farming practices' where IMO a polite reply would not be more negative than 'I can't say I see any reason to farm this way but it was an interesting read thanks for sharing'.
But then if I wanted to discuss biodynamic farming or vaccination etc, there may well be better places than here (which is perhaps a shame, as I imagine there is at least some crossover between downsizer type folk (whoever they are) and non-vaccers, hippy farmers etc?)
I struggle to see the need for sarcy offhand remarks....sometiems they are funny and harmless, but mostly they are negative and offputting. But thats just me


Well put.


Indeed. I don't know why everyone can't post along the same lines as the do on other threads. If someone asks a question about their chicken health we wouldn't expect a long discussion about the ethics of keeping chickens but if someone asks about the rights and wrongs of battery farming you would expect that.

However, if someone asks for advice on something like biodynamic gardening you'd very quickly get loads of remarks dismissing it.

Bebo



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12576
Location: East Sussex
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

12Bore wrote:
Bebo wrote:
I'm probably one of the more vocal anti-religion posters. If people choose to believe that god exists that's their choice, doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. However, organised religion and those that pedal it (and by that I mean those in charge of religious organisations) are in my opinion a bad thing and I'm going to continue saying that on here up until I'm banned for it.

So long as you do not launch personal attacks on other posters (which you do not) fair enough. Every opinion is valid, even when one disagrees with it.


Until what I get posts gets taken wrongly and the complaints start rolling in.......probably only a matter of time to be honest.

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Treacodactyl wrote:

Indeed. I don't know why everyone can't post along the same lines as the do on other threads. If someone asks a question about their chicken health we wouldn't expect a long discussion about the ethics of keeping chickens but if someone asks about the rights and wrongs of battery farming you would expect that.

However, if someone asks for advice on something like biodynamic gardening you'd very quickly get loads of remarks dismissing it.


It is possible to be correct or to be incorrect. There is a difference between something being right, and something being wrong. Thats not a faith based thing, its whether something can be demonstrated as being true or not. It isn't unreasonable for people to post critically of things that are demonstrably untrue, or which could, if actually true, be so easily shown to be so that the lack of evidence arouses suspicion.

Biodynamics is an excellent example; I expect people to keep an open mind on most things, and that includes being open to the fact that its hokum. To restrict such topics to remove criticism would show Downsizer in a very bad light. This site would be much lessened by protecting topics from that criticism, such doesn't help people have open minds or more balanced perspectives. That is only possible in an environment where criticism is allowed.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:

Indeed. I don't know why everyone can't post along the same lines as the do on other threads. If someone asks a question about their chicken health we wouldn't expect a long discussion about the ethics of keeping chickens but if someone asks about the rights and wrongs of battery farming you would expect that.

However, if someone asks for advice on something like biodynamic gardening you'd very quickly get loads of remarks dismissing it.


It is possible to be correct or to be incorrect. There is a difference between something being right, and something being wrong. Thats not a faith based thing, its whether something can be demonstrated as being true or not. It isn't unreasonable for people to post critically of things that are demonstrably untrue, or which could, if actually true, be so easily shown to be so that the lack of evidence arouses suspicion.

Biodynamics is an excellent example; I expect people to keep an open mind on most things, and that includes being open to the fact that its hokum. To restrict such topics to remove criticism would show Downsizer in a very bad light. This site would be much lessened by protecting topics from that criticism, such doesn't help people have open minds or more balanced perspectives. That is only possible in an environment where criticism is allowed.


I think you've missed my point completely.

T.G



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 7280
Location: Somewhere you're not
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I may be wrong in thinking this, but Iím not sure what youíre discussing now is what DBE intended.

It seemed from what sheíd written she wanted merely a platform for those with alternative viewpoint on non-classic/modern/alternative, call it what you will, activities and practices to be able to share what they had experienced without having it be brow beaten into affirming something by validation, credible documented sources and scientific acknowledgement. When in fact the thing being discussed is by definition is based in belief and hands-on experience.

Such as herbal wormers, for years they were treated as airy fairy alternatives and yet now there is a growing respect for them based in both scientific and experience based knowledge of their successful use.

Iím not saying that is the only example or for that matter all alternatives are the way forward, but if those who wish to discuss them openly have to contend with a barrage of comments demanding quantifiable evidence for something that is faith/belief based then it really isnít allowing them to express what theyíve experienced, good and bad, which some of us may find of interest even if we donít necessarily agree, believe or practice it.

Respectful comments such as have already been suggested should be sufficient for those uninterested/unbelieving who feel compelled to make a comment.

Just because someone doesnít believe in a god or religion doesnít automatically make them saner than those that do

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Treacodactyl wrote:
cab wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:

Indeed. I don't know why everyone can't post along the same lines as the do on other threads. If someone asks a question about their chicken health we wouldn't expect a long discussion about the ethics of keeping chickens but if someone asks about the rights and wrongs of battery farming you would expect that.

However, if someone asks for advice on something like biodynamic gardening you'd very quickly get loads of remarks dismissing it.


It is possible to be correct or to be incorrect. There is a difference between something being right, and something being wrong. Thats not a faith based thing, its whether something can be demonstrated as being true or not. It isn't unreasonable for people to post critically of things that are demonstrably untrue, or which could, if actually true, be so easily shown to be so that the lack of evidence arouses suspicion.

Biodynamics is an excellent example; I expect people to keep an open mind on most things, and that includes being open to the fact that its hokum. To restrict such topics to remove criticism would show Downsizer in a very bad light. This site would be much lessened by protecting topics from that criticism, such doesn't help people have open minds or more balanced perspectives. That is only possible in an environment where criticism is allowed.


I think you've missed my point completely.


Have I? Then please reiterate; what point did I miss? My head is still woozy from a stinker of a cold over the weekend.

Jonnyboy



Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23924
Location: under some rain.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Then why not use a particular website suited to that particular purpose? I wouldn't post on here if I wanted to discuss the best mountain bike tyres for muddy conditions, or whether the main themes of Paul's epistle to the Romans is more or less relevent in a non-patriarchal society.

sean
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42042
Location: North Devon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Jonnyboy wrote:
Then why not use a particular website suited to that particular purpose? I wouldn't post on here if I wanted to discuss the best mountain bike tyres for muddy conditions, or whether the main themes of Paul's epistle to the Romans is more or less relevent in a non-patriarchal society.


Indeed. I think that the idea that ds can or should cater for everybody and everything under the sun is a bit problematic really.

Gervase



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 8655

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
To restrict such topics to remove criticism would show Downsizer in a very bad light. This site would be much lessened by protecting topics from that criticism, such doesn't help people have open minds or more balanced perspectives. That is only possible in an environment where criticism is allowed.

Couldn't agree more. Any viewpoint should be open for discussion.

T.G



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 7280
Location: Somewhere you're not
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Jonnyboy wrote:
Then why not use a particular website suited to that particular purpose? I wouldn't post on here if I wanted to discuss the best mountain bike tyres for muddy conditions, or whether the main themes of Paul's epistle to the Romans is more or less relevent in a non-patriarchal society.


Yes fair enough but then why is discussing alternative herbal remedies on a form entitled ethical and sustainable any less relevant than lets say the census for 2011? As lets face it herbal wormers are both of those.

naomij



Joined: 03 Mar 2011
Posts: 379
Location: Kent coast
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Yes fair enough but then why is discussing alternative herbal remedies on a form entitled ethical and sustainable any less relevant than lets say the census for 2011? As lets face it herbal wormers are both of those.[/quote]

yes and I think that folk into herbalism, biodynamics etc would feel those subjects are very relevant to living sustainably and ethically? But I suppose the question is whether its fair if such folk are grilled as to why they see it to be relevant every time they want to mention it

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

sean wrote:
Jonnyboy wrote:
Then why not use a particular website suited to that particular purpose? I wouldn't post on here if I wanted to discuss the best mountain bike tyres for muddy conditions, or whether the main themes of Paul's epistle to the Romans is more or less relevent in a non-patriarchal society.


Indeed. I think that the idea that ds can or should cater for everybody and everything under the sun is a bit problematic really.


Well some of the more practical posts do have a cross over and regardless of your beliefs that can be useful to others.

I don't disagree that any viewpoint should be open to discussion but not every time someone mentions it. If after every post about animals or meat eating someone ranted about how evil it is to eat meat I don't think we'd tolerate that would we?

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

T.G wrote:

Yes fair enough but then why is discussing alternative herbal remedies on a form entitled ethical and sustainable any less relevant than lets say the census for 2011? As lets face it herbal wormers are both of those.


There is no problem with people posting such things here. Herbal wormers, reiki, that strange thing where they do things to your feet, whatever really. As long as any criticism thereof is fair, I have no problem with people responding critically.

Last edited by cab on Mon Mar 07, 11 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 11 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Treacodactyl wrote:

Well some of the more practical posts do have a cross over and regardless of your beliefs that can be useful to others.

I don't disagree that any viewpoint should be open to discussion but not every time someone mentions it. If after every post about animals or meat eating someone ranted about how evil it is to eat meat I don't think we'd tolerate that would we?


That entirely depends on how they make their point. If they just say 'its evil' that would get tiresome. If they make a good argument, whats the problem?

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