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relaxing pollution enforcement, with fishy update
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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 22 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

cant remember which one, but the fella is a big beet sugar man

Shane



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3407
Location: Doha. Is hot.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 22 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Shane wrote:
Unlikely to be sewage, as a major release would kill by depleting the water of oxygen, and that would affect the entire water column. I'd guess that something toxic and heavier than water has been released, which would also explain the near-dead rather than completely dead state of many of the crustaceans. Interesting that there are no bottom-dwelling fish there, but maybe whatever has caused it affects crustaceans more than other groups of species.

Hmm - unfortunately looks like I may have been correct.

My one question would be: What are they looking for? If they are sampling and looking for contaminants currently produced by industry they may miss something deposited by the Victorians.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 22 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

iirc the tees has been industrial for 200 yrs or so, what to look for should not be is it this? it should be what can be found that is unusual, see above MS/HPLC/GLC

this might not show anything odd if it was a transient event, that seems unlikely as this has been ongoing for some time

it may be in somebody's interest that it remains "a mystery"

having chased a contamination problem with implications, not looking for the relevant agent is a well known tactic
im not sure how much of that went public on DS, so i will just add Mo/hypercurosis/petcoke and you lot can play googlechi

i know, others know, prove would be tricky, there was a fair bit of tradecraft as well as science to know as much as we do
they stopped, spose that is a win

oh, there is a legacy that will be paid at some time in the future but for now the problem is buried in a shallow grave

the ceo of drax was very rattled when i blagged the phone call

that needed a bunch of "non relevant" data to be seen together to make it "relevant"

ps it is still my opinion that the "boffin"(thanks anyway maam, you know who you are, he was the right chap but in the wrong situation) was got at, considering the most relevant element on the test for this list was notably missing from the results, and i had to do tradecraft to eventually chat with him about that.
no blame, he did not want the consequences of being honest

sampling and testing is all good fun until somebody has their career threatened

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 13916

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 22 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

There are probably a number of people who do know but can't run the risk of being the whistleblower if you are right.

The other possibility, even more possible, is that it is a legacy toxin. There were some nasty things released by industry in the early days.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 22 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

both could apply.

afaik the leccy industry has nowt to do with this problem

the dredger folk, umm, perhaps. does seem plausible even if they know not what they did, maybe especially if they don't or did not know

perhaps a legacy from elsewhere or a more recent "challenge" that arrived

that returns me to more data required

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 22 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

don't look up and don't drink the water

in the uk it was around 1976 that a large scale river survey was conducted, i did some of it, and then over ten years or so most of the grossest challenges were stopped and life was restored to many places

until about 2010 waterways continued to improve, since then lots of "incidents" and continuous challenges have occurred, those add up to almost as bad as the late 1960's although there is less industrial than then the new chemical profile(pesticides, "modern life" etc) does for a food chain just as well as a dye vat

"dry" land stuff has big issues as well, legacy, ongoing official and ongoing sly
all can be very nasty

most are careless, economic(with or without paperwork)and a few are malicious

i know of a doozey malicious one that involved buying a few acres, falling out the recycling firm the other side of the lane who did not want to do business with him, then "storing gravel" on it
gravel turns out to have been rejected as gravel cos it was low grade cadmium ore and the perp folds the firm that bought the field
when it had been there the best part of a decade, there were 3 small plants in maybe 7 acres

30UWD9308890630 it has a few trees on a hump that had little gravel after 20 years

pop that location into google earth pro, it will give you good eyeball from above

Last edited by dpack on Thu Jan 20, 22 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 22 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

ps any washdown from that ends up in the derwent which is not far away

it has been there about 30 yrs the bits of green have colonized in the last 20 yrs, more than i expected

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 22 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

ps the recycling firm were not happy as it really was not their problem but the often were wrongly blamed

they had had serious dioxin issues in the past but the crazy dutch chap tidied things a lot

one of very few facilities that can handle some stuff they mitigate

maybe the dutch chap was not entirely crazy, vegan with a "dirty side" recycling firm which is far better than sly dumping as legacy might be ok.
they did car batteries among many things, he would not sell the lead for birdshot or deer rounds, he would sell it for military ammunition

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 22 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

some data

useful for where not to beach forage as well as evidence

gz



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 7703
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 22 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Very useful data..pity it only covers Wales and England

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 22 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

"official" statements do not match the observations or even the numbers issued by those involved

anecdote and eyeball suggests that pollution pays, even gross incidents are cheap to "apologize" for, and we are rapidly regaining the dirty man of europe status we had in the 1970's.
it may not be that level of overkill as we exported most manufacturing pollution to other countries, a dead river is dead and does not require multiple fatal challenges one or two are sufficient.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 13916

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 22 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I would think there is data available for Scotland Gz, but sadly no idea where to find it.

There are multiple discharges near us. There are also multiple groups trying to get something done about it. One of the problems is that a lot of housing built during the 19th century had storm water connected to the sewer, but not convinced some newer housing isn't too. Local sewage authority has already been fined massive amounts for discharges.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 22 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

not massive amounts, big numbers for us but in billion pound turnovers it is barely loose change

the grosser stuff sometimes is noticed and occasionally held to account
the hidden stuff such as pesticides, nutrient and soil run off are under the radar

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42109
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 22 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

umm

the symptoms are unusual for cyanides, dead sea life from a transient event is plausible, wrong symptoms for the dogs
dioxins are odd but dont have that presentation

chromium might be a candidate

crabs and dogs may have different causes, dogs may be secondary from snacking on too long dead sea food, etc

i want to see full range mass spec and hplc results and compare them to pre "these things are dead, dying or poorly" results

organics can be rather fugitive*, inorganics are pretty easy to find even if most washed away

*decomposition/metabolism products etc are worth seeking among the anomalous peaks

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 13916

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 22 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Defra claim to have screened for 1000 possible pollutants, but as you say Dpack, a full mass spec and hplc as well as a few other spectra might be useful. I would think that their testing would show up most if not all possible inorganic pollutants, so it is more likely to be some organic material, which remembering my days struggling with IR and NMR spectra, are far less easy to identify. I know things have moved on a long way, but organics, particularly breakdown products are still not the easiest things to find.

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